DRK being compared to past FF games.

[Krr]

Let's be honest - Every time you used a Dark Knight in FF games you didn't invite it for healing or to "tank".

If you actually look at the history of FF games, and Square games in general, this is historically untrue. Dark Knight isn't much different from other heavily-armored, 'Tanky' frontline warriors aside from a slight offensive bent and a preference of offense-maligning debuffs over protective abilities. They still serve the same 'purpose' in the team as a Knight or Paladin or 'Warrior'-type class, just in preference of a party playstyle that prefers a little more recklessness.

FF3 - DRK is actually just the tanky Knight class with the ability to cast magic and use "Dark" weapons. In the DS remake, they gain Cecil's signature "Darkness" attack, but not much else.

FF4 - Cecil is a Dark Knight. Well, until he becomes a Paladin. He's actually one of the stronger physical damage dealers, but he isn't actually any stronger in terms of attack power than the 'Tanky' paladin Cecil aside from his ability to use the Darkness attack - which actually does worse damage than whacking away at single foes in the exact same way Paladin Cecil does.

FFT - Gafgarion is the only Dark Knight in the game, and leaves the party rather quickly. The Dark Knight job is actually a narrow mirror of the Holy Knight job Agrias uses; which derives its stats in turn from the tanky non-magical 'Knight' class. Both jobs use special sword techniques that inflict status effects; one of the Dark Knight abilities is notably unique in that it drains HP to keep the Dark Knight alive longer.

FFX-2: The next game wherein a Dark Knight appears. It turns out it's actually a fairly rare class in lore! This Dark Knight actually has among the strongest defense stats in the game and has bar-none the highest HP. It is actually a little broken - Darkness deals not Dark but 'non elemental' damage which causes it to do more damage than any other attack to most enemies, completely ignoring defense. This could probably be boiled down to an oversight - Darkness just plain isn't an element in the FFX games, and damage is either one of the four elements, physical, or non-elemental. Aside from this mis-designed special attack, they have one ability, Charon, which causes the Dark Knight to literally explode for thousands of non-elemental damage and then inflicts a 'Banish' type effect on the Dark Knight. The rest of their attacks are status effects that make it harder for enemies to hurt the Dark Knight or their party, and Drain-type spells that help the Dark Knight stay alive while using her HP-expending attacks. Actually probably the first incarnation of the 'offensive' Dark Knight, but they have a number of tanky characteristics as well.

FFXI - Dark Knight is a job that has a multitude of attacks that make it deal more damage in exchange for HP or becoming more vulnerable to damage. Interestingly, they also have multiple attacks that generate considerable bonus aggro when used, and one of their abilities even gives them as much hate as Provoke! They also wear heavy armor and have decent HP; however, the community (not the designers) adopts them in the metagame as melee damage dealers.

Then there's the Tactics Ogre series, which actually inspired FFT and is made by the same writer and game designer. In the most recent remake, TO:LUCT, Terror Knights (the Chaos-aligned advanced Knight unit) have better attack than their Knight and Paladin counterparts, but not quite as much as Berserkers, Ninjas, or other 'lightly armored' offensive fighters, but have a Rampart aura designed for 'tanky' classes and inflict Fear and other status effects to keep them alive. They make excellent supplements to an army focused on units designed to 'break' the front line quickly and effectively, but they aren't really the damage dealers themselves - they're fight initiators, debuffers, and opportunity-makers for the other classes. Essentially, a tank.

It's also worth noting that Final Fantasy has its roots in classical DnD, where the 'Tank' was not simply a meatshield, but the party member most adept at physical combat, and was competent at the frontline. They were big, durable, re-usable, and hit hard and hit close, and were damn good at breaking things, and most certainly not defined by a lack of damage. This carried into Final Fantasy's design where the 'Tank' classes - Paladin included! - were still capable of hitting big and hitting hard - they just also lacked the same tricks that Mages had, or the flexible utility that Thieves/Rangers/Ninjas/et al had. Dark Knight has always been in this 'Tank' category - A simple, hard-hitting frontliner distinguished from other heavily armored classes by a smattering of flavor gimmicks. One of these just happened to involve spending HP to do a little extra damage.

[chococo]

It's also worth noting that Final Fantasy has its roots in classical DnD, where the 'Tank' was not simply a meatshield, but the party member most adept at physical combat, and was competent at the frontline. They were big, durable, re-usable, and hit hard and hit close, and were damn good at breaking things, and most certainly not defined by a lack of damage. This carried into Final Fantasy's design where the 'Tank' classes - Paladin included! - were still capable of hitting big and hitting hard

Keep in mind though that this is an MMORPG. You can't have tank classes dealing big numbers. Otherwise why would you need any other job. Just bring DRKsx6 + healers. A gimped DRK that can't damage but can tank does not resemble DRK as much as a DRK that can do dmg but can't tank.

Most previous games lean towards the latter (a bit more dmg, a bit less tanky) instead of the other way round.

[MomomiMomi]

Interestingly, they also have multiple attacks that generate considerable bonus aggro when used, and one of their abilities even gives them as much hate as Provoke! They also wear heavy armor and have decent HP; however, the community (not the designers) adopts them in the metagame as melee damage dealers.

If you're implying that the hate generation on Souleater is a sign that it's a tanky job, you're being absurd. It's simply a part of the risky nature of Dark Knight's design: increasing your damage with increased risk to your own safety.

Also:

FF3 "Dark Knight" is not even the same job. It only shares the Dark Knight name in English.

Dark Knight does not have the highest HP in FFX-2. That would be Berserker.

[Krr]

If you're implying that the hate generation on Souleater is a sign that it's a tanky job,

I'm implying that FFXI had a completely bonkers metagame and jobs were not "designed" to do anything but resemble classical Final Fantasy characters until very late into the game's lifecycle. The community chose DRK to be a high-risk high-reward DD, not the developers. Just like they chose NIN to be a tank and all the other ridiculous role assigments we've seen as the game evolved.

This is a bit of a stretch, as what creates the distinction between DRK and PLD Cecil is the fact that DRK Cecil has an offensive special command (Darkness), while PLD Cecil has a defensive special command (Cover).

That's true, but compare both versions of Cecil to other members of the party - both of them do less (but more consistent) damage with their attacks, have higher HP, better armor, and better defensive. Dark Knight Cecil was hardly a damage-dealing powerhouse in the face of what Yang, Edge, or the game's various mage characters could do. It's hardly a stretch of the imagination.

As for Gafgarion, he had the same stat, gear, and even attack skill progression as the other Knight classes in the game, which were front-line tanks.

Simply put, the idea that Dark Knights come into the party for their damage abilities and that their heavy armor and high HP aren't relevant is a community projection mixed with personal opinion, not the reality of the mechanics of any game they're in - except Final Fantasy XI, where NIN, MNK, and even THF had moments in the metagame where they were tanks. Beyond lifedrain and lifeburn, the relatively recent iterations of Dark Knight typically have a theme of abilities that maim, cripple, and otherwise debuff his enemies with Black Magic or similar 'dark forces', and I honestly don't doubt that we'll see a mechanic where they're empowered by taking damage from the enemies they're taking or placing themselves in other 'risky' scenarios.

And even then, there's nothing saying we can't have a lifeburn mechanic for OT DPS, so long as it's not something you can spam to the point of griefing your healers, or a couple of life-draining attacks, so long as they aren't the only way the class can defend itself.

Sure, thematically, Dark Knight is an offensive counterpart, and the other side to the Paladin's 'coin'. A mirror, however, is not wholly an opposite, and the two jobs have always had mechanical similarities that make both fill a role as heavy, frontline warriors.

Except in Final Fantasy XI which for some people 'round here may as well be the only Final Fantasy game, I guess.

[Aegis]

I'm implying that FFXI had a completely bonkers metagame and jobs were not "designed" to do anything but resemble classical Final Fantasy characters until very late into the game's lifecycle. The community chose DRK to be a high-risk high-reward DD, not the developers. Just like they chose NIN to be a tank and all the other ridiculous role assigments we've seen as the game

I see they point you're trying to make, but this is just silly. Dark knight had not asingle defensive buff (until dread spikes). It had nothing that generated significant hate that didn't also do damage. It had several abilities that either debuffed or directly hurt yourself to increase your damage DRK was a DPS by design, not by community usage.

Souleater - guillotine. Tell me that's a tank.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I see they point you're trying to make, but this is just silly. Dark knight had not asingle defensive buff (until dread spikes). It had nothing that generated significant hate that didn't also do damage. It had several abilities that either debuffed or directly hurt yourself to increase your damage DRK was a DPS by design, not by community usage.

The Dark Knights debuffs spells were its defensive "buffs." A debuff that decreases damage dealt is the offensively applied mirror of a buff that decreases damage received. It also has the earliest access to the spell "Drain," an offensively applied self heal, of any class.

Last Resort(38/256 increase in damage inflicted/taken, bunch of Enmity) is a combination of a toned down Berserk (64/256 increase in damage inflicted/taken) combined with Provoke(bunch of Enmity), skills from a class you were expected to have at 30 before you unlocked Dark Knight.

Dark Knight looks to have been intended as an Offensive tank. In theory, a tank that takes ~33% more damage but makes the fight 25% shorter is balanced with a tank that takes 25% less damage but makes the fight 33% longer.

Souleater - guillotine. Tell me that's a tank.

That is a damage combo that Silences and inflicts +40% your hp in damage to yourself and the target because Souleater triggers on hits not actions. Was Souleater+ Kraken Club an intended combo?

[Krr]

It had several abilities that either debuffed or directly hurt yourself to increase your damage DRK was a DPS by design, not by community usage.

Nothing in FFXI was consciously designed around trinity. That's the point.

DRK was a heavily armored class with the ability to use either big swords and scythes or a sword and shield (though the community found this a useless feature, not the designers designing it) that could situationally (due to, let's face it, the long-ass cooldowns on every JA in FFXI) harm itself to deal more damage. Thanks to FFXI's flexible job and subjob system, the community (and no one else! no one actually making the game!) figured out how to break this to make DRK capable of outputting high damage with its high-hate abilities without actually drawing said hate. If DRK in FFXIV is a heavily armored job with a large weapon that can use lots of debuffs and situationally harm itself for benefits then it hasn't sacrificed any "thematic" it had from FFXI other than the ability to make Epic Big Numbers appear in the combat log.

[BlaiseArath]

Nothing in FFXI was consciously designed around trinity. That's the point.

A little of Yes and no. While not every job was confined to those 3 roles... those 3 roles WERE in the game, it was just more lenient due to the sub job system... though not as lenient as 1.0 XIV >_>. So in XI while some jobs could fill unintended roles due to the guile of the community, it didn't mean they were that spectrum of the trinity. A WHM and RDM could DD decently, but weren't DD classes for example, and SMN while having access to avatars and DD potential, were mostly lame healers.

DRK was a heavily armored class with the ability to use either big swords and scythes or a sword and shield (though the community found this a useless feature, not the designers designing it) that could situationally (due to, let's face it, the long-ass cooldowns on every JA in FFXI) harm itself to deal more damage.

I'm not going to quote the rest because, and I really actually do apologize for sounding rude here, but this is just horrendously false. Having access to some heavy armor in XI didn't make you a tank, and even as the years developed and actual low level tanking armor was added (Eisen gear, PLD/WAR only, no DRK there), DRK was left off most tanking armor. You can take a look at a job in XI designed to be a tank (PLD), and check out its job abilities.

Sentinel: Reduces Damage taken, heavily increases Enmity
Rampart: Reduces Magic damage taken and increases DEF for party members
Cover: Its cover.
Palisade: Increases Shield block Rate
Reprisal: Increases block rate and adds reflect damage to shield blocks
Phalanx: Decreases damage taken
Protect/Cure Spells
Defense Bonus Job Traits
Shield Def. Bonus Job traits
Shield Mastery Job Traits
Enlight; Increases Acc/Adds Light damage to swings.
Flash: Greatly increases Enmity
A+ Shield, A- Parry

Almost everything PLD does and can do involved increasing their DEF and MDEF and keeping hate. Outside of Enlight and sub jobs they have no real natural offensive abilities.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dark_Knight

DRK, on the other hand, has the highest Attack Bonus job trait available to any job, access to several job abilities that sacrifice their survival for enhanced damage, Endark which raises their attack and deals dark damage, a slew of black magic spells (some with utility like Drain and Aspir), and not a single defensive ability to their name (Save Dread Spikes, added years later). Even WAR, who can be a DD or a tank, has that in their Abilities. Defender and Berserk, Attack Bonus and Defense Bonus, Shield skill and 2-handed Weapon skill. They are clearly multi-purpose, DRK is not. While DRKs abilities did generate a lot of enmity, this was because of how powerful they were offensively, it was meant to "constrain" the DRKs and be a set-back to their high power... it was a high risk job with amazing offensive potential but very dangerous in that it could pull hate and die.

Now Kraken Club zerging was something create by the community, but thats not why DRK was considered a DD, it was just one very broken aspect of the job.

DRK can equip a very limited amount of shields, but they have 0 shield skill, and Skill was everything in XI. They also had mediocre sword skill, a C in evasion, and an E in parry... and were much more proficient (and depicted in every official artwork with a Scythe or GS). Plus, and this is straight from the Devs, check the released "Job Manifesto" that SE released on the jobs, in every single one of them, DRK is described as a Damage dealer. DRK on shields and some otherwise PLD only armor is there strictly due to lore purposes, as Dark Knights and Paladins were both considered "Knights" on the opposite ends of the spectrum. Dark KNights the offensive Knights with black magic, and Paladins the defensive knights with white magic.

I'm sorry, in offline games maybe you have a point, but in XI, DRK is clearly a DD job, it may be able to use some heavy armor, but a lot of jobs could, and its not like XIV where "Heavy Armor" means tanking, in XI a lot of things weren't held to the norms of other games. WHM had access to the most defensive body piece in the game for a while (Holy Breastplate)... So you can't apply "heavy armor = tanking" logic to XI, thats not how it worked...

Edit: Oh and PS in case it was lost, I don't actually care if DRK is going to be a tank in XIV, As long as Black Magic in incorporated into the job and it stays true to the lore of the job itself, I'm cool regardless of the roles it fills.
Edit2: and to give DRK credit, it was "capable" of tanking to some degree with the addition of Dread spikes, access to a decent amount of PDT- gear, and Apocalypse... but almost every job in XI could "Tank", which is why PLD wasn't really popular in a lot of events once people figured them out... hell I think in XI's ~13 or so years of service, DD's have filled more tanking roles than PLD... with MNK, WAR, and SAM being the big 3 "DD tanks".

[Duelle]

FF4 - Cecil is a Dark Knight. Well, until he becomes a Paladin. He's actually one of the stronger physical damage dealers, but he isn't actually any stronger in terms of attack power than the 'Tanky' paladin Cecil aside from his ability to use the Darkness attack - which actually does worse damage than whacking away at single foes in the exact same way Paladin Cecil does.

This is a bit of a stretch, as what creates the distinction between DRK and PLD Cecil is the fact that DRK Cecil has an offensive special command (Darkness), while PLD Cecil has a defensive special command (Cover).

FFT - Gafgarion is the only Dark Knight in the game, and leaves the party rather quickly. The Dark Knight job is actually a narrow mirror of the Holy Knight job Agrias uses; which derives its stats in turn from the tanky non-magical 'Knight' class. Both jobs use special sword techniques that inflict status effects; one of the Dark Knight abilities is notably unique in that it drains HP to keep the Dark Knight alive longer.

The drains were more thematic in purpose, and somewhat OP in the eyes of the original developer team (hence why Gafgarion was the only DRK in the original FFT). They did give him a "pest" factor by the fact that his Dark Sword skills could undo most of the damage your units did on him unless you ganged up on him. I guess his natively lower attack could make him "tanky", though to me that's a bit of a stretch.

FFXI - Dark Knight is a job that has a multitude of attacks that make it deal more damage in exchange for HP or becoming more vulnerable to damage. Interestingly, they also have multiple attacks that generate considerable bonus aggro when used, and one of their abilities even gives them as much hate as Provoke! They also wear heavy armor and have decent HP; however, the community (not the designers) adopts them in the metagame as melee damage dealers.

The high enmity was there to create a risk factor in using cooldowns. Heavy armor in FFXI did not necessarily mean "tank", either. XI's DRK had no defensive traits, mediocre proficiencies in sword and shield (which prompted me to keep asking why the devs even bothered to put DRK on shields it had little use for) and little in the way of tools to hold aggro. It also lacked mechanics to make it versatile enough to gear for tanking or gear for DPS. Granted, XI's defense stat is near useless and gear swaps cause enough trouble as is.

--------------------------

As I've said in another thread, there are thematic concessions that will have to be made for this DRK to work. HP drains are out of the question, as that model did not work and the last thing we need is DRK becoming the same as WAR back when ARR launched. Sacrificing HP is also out of the question because you're increasing your chances of death by going in that direction. The only thing left is going entirely by the darkness thing. Dark/fel energy-themed abilities that make it possible for the DRK to withstand damage and generate aggro. You'd get a working tank, and one that can be called a Dark Knight, but it would not have any of the elements that FF fans are familiar with. It'd be a different spin on the job (similarly to how BRD has been approached), for better or worse.

[Tanathya]

FFXI - Dark Knight is a job that has a multitude of attacks that make it deal more damage in exchange for HP or becoming more vulnerable to damage. Interestingly, they also have multiple attacks that generate considerable bonus aggro when used, and one of their abilities even gives them as much hate as Provoke! They also wear heavy armor and have decent HP; however, the community (not the designers) adopts them in the metagame as melee damage dealers.

Also, the biggest HP pool was MNK's, by far (which is, alongside Counter, the most famous trait to MNKs in almost every single FF, mind you), and you never invited MNKs as a tank, not until Abyssea.

Let's be reasonable here, there are plenty of jobs with defensive skills that could've worked great in here, and by the description given to FFXIV's DRK, that sounds more akin to a Rune Fencer/Knight, with all the magical defense theme.