DRK being compared to past FF games.

[RyuDragnier]

You can also see the difference in Cecil in FF4. As a Dark Knight, he sacrifices HP to unleash a devastating attack. This is the Dark Knight's only defining trait. Its role is to deal damage. After his change to a Paladin, he gains Cover. This allows him to use his own body to take attacks in place of another party member. This is a tank.

Look at DRK in FFXI in combination with FFIV. DRK in FFXI could steal stats, HP, and MP from the enemies using various Drain skills. It's possible they may combine the two, the Darkness skill doing a lot of damage and grabbing a lot of hate, and the drain skills working as the defensive cooldowns keeping the tank alive through stealing the enemies HP (and thus getting MORE aggro).

[Barboron]

Actually, it would be logical to go by past FF games. Otherwise why not make PLD a healer, WHM a DPS, and SCH a tank? It's an MMO, let's do whatever!

[Reokudo]

The question is, how good of a tank will it be? PLD is more favorable of a MT over WAR. I'd imagine that it remains the same even when DRK comes out. Personally, I don't like seeing two handed classes tank.(Unless it coincides with their story showing that you know, they protect those who cannot protect themselves.) Refer to WAR's story, wherever did they say you were meant to protect others? You're a Berserker. The whole story was pretty much telling you "You got an axe, go smash shit." GLA/PLD questlines even had you protect someone. So what edgy story awaits us as DRK?! STAY TUNED.

[Martin_Arcainess]

Actually, it would be logical to go by past FF games. Otherwise why not make PLD a healer, WHM a DPS, and SCH a tank? It's an MMO, let's do whatever!

Yeah scew logic! And while were at it! Make Bahamut the Golden Saucer Manager!

The question is, how good of a tank will it be? PLD is more favorable of a MT over WAR. I'd imagine that it remains the same even when DRK comes out. Personally, I don't like seeing two handed classes tank.(Unless it coincides with their story showing that you know, they protect those who cannot protect themselves.) Refer to WAR's story, wherever did they say you were meant to protect others? You're a Berserker. The whole story was pretty much telling you "You got an axe, go smash shit." GLA/PLD questlines even had you protect someone. So what edgy story awaits us as DRK?! STAY TUNED.

on Dragon Dark Knight Z!

[Krr]

Let's be honest - Every time you used a Dark Knight in FF games you didn't invite it for healing or to "tank".

If you actually look at the history of FF games, and Square games in general, this is historically untrue. Dark Knight isn't much different from other heavily-armored, 'Tanky' frontline warriors aside from a slight offensive bent and a preference of offense-maligning debuffs over protective abilities. They still serve the same 'purpose' in the team as a Knight or Paladin or 'Warrior'-type class, just in preference of a party playstyle that prefers a little more recklessness.

FF3 - DRK is actually just the tanky Knight class with the ability to cast magic and use "Dark" weapons. In the DS remake, they gain Cecil's signature "Darkness" attack, but not much else.

FF4 - Cecil is a Dark Knight. Well, until he becomes a Paladin. He's actually one of the stronger physical damage dealers, but he isn't actually any stronger in terms of attack power than the 'Tanky' paladin Cecil aside from his ability to use the Darkness attack - which actually does worse damage than whacking away at single foes in the exact same way Paladin Cecil does.

FFT - Gafgarion is the only Dark Knight in the game, and leaves the party rather quickly. The Dark Knight job is actually a narrow mirror of the Holy Knight job Agrias uses; which derives its stats in turn from the tanky non-magical 'Knight' class. Both jobs use special sword techniques that inflict status effects; one of the Dark Knight abilities is notably unique in that it drains HP to keep the Dark Knight alive longer.

FFX-2: The next game wherein a Dark Knight appears. It turns out it's actually a fairly rare class in lore! This Dark Knight actually has among the strongest defense stats in the game and has bar-none the highest HP. It is actually a little broken - Darkness deals not Dark but 'non elemental' damage which causes it to do more damage than any other attack to most enemies, completely ignoring defense. This could probably be boiled down to an oversight - Darkness just plain isn't an element in the FFX games, and damage is either one of the four elements, physical, or non-elemental. Aside from this mis-designed special attack, they have one ability, Charon, which causes the Dark Knight to literally explode for thousands of non-elemental damage and then inflicts a 'Banish' type effect on the Dark Knight. The rest of their attacks are status effects that make it harder for enemies to hurt the Dark Knight or their party, and Drain-type spells that help the Dark Knight stay alive while using her HP-expending attacks. Actually probably the first incarnation of the 'offensive' Dark Knight, but they have a number of tanky characteristics as well.

FFXI - Dark Knight is a job that has a multitude of attacks that make it deal more damage in exchange for HP or becoming more vulnerable to damage. Interestingly, they also have multiple attacks that generate considerable bonus aggro when used, and one of their abilities even gives them as much hate as Provoke! They also wear heavy armor and have decent HP; however, the community (not the designers) adopts them in the metagame as melee damage dealers.

Then there's the Tactics Ogre series, which actually inspired FFT and is made by the same writer and game designer. In the most recent remake, TO:LUCT, Terror Knights (the Chaos-aligned advanced Knight unit) have better attack than their Knight and Paladin counterparts, but not quite as much as Berserkers, Ninjas, or other 'lightly armored' offensive fighters, but have a Rampart aura designed for 'tanky' classes and inflict Fear and other status effects to keep them alive. They make excellent supplements to an army focused on units designed to 'break' the front line quickly and effectively, but they aren't really the damage dealers themselves - they're fight initiators, debuffers, and opportunity-makers for the other classes. Essentially, a tank.

It's also worth noting that Final Fantasy has its roots in classical DnD, where the 'Tank' was not simply a meatshield, but the party member most adept at physical combat, and was competent at the frontline. They were big, durable, re-usable, and hit hard and hit close, and were damn good at breaking things, and most certainly not defined by a lack of damage. This carried into Final Fantasy's design where the 'Tank' classes - Paladin included! - were still capable of hitting big and hitting hard - they just also lacked the same tricks that Mages had, or the flexible utility that Thieves/Rangers/Ninjas/et al had. Dark Knight has always been in this 'Tank' category - A simple, hard-hitting frontliner distinguished from other heavily armored classes by a smattering of flavor gimmicks. One of these just happened to involve spending HP to do a little extra damage.

[Mirron]

There's also the simple fact that having a DPS that consistently deals damage to itself is a horrible idea. If the damage increase is too strong then Dark Knight becomes really important and pushes out other DPS. If the damage increase isn't worth the damage done, then it'll be ignored for being inefficient. And if the Dark Knight is only going to use the HP loss abilities now and again (which is what they did in traditional FF as well, using them every turn is foolish) then there isn't anything wrong with the tank doing that. Using the ability intelligently is all that's required for it to work fine as a tank, just tie it into it's Flash equivalent or something. Or make it into a stance.

And ignoring Darkness, they have lots of tank-like qualities still.

[chococo]

It's also worth noting that Final Fantasy has its roots in classical DnD, where the 'Tank' was not simply a meatshield, but the party member most adept at physical combat, and was competent at the frontline. They were big, durable, re-usable, and hit hard and hit close, and were damn good at breaking things, and most certainly not defined by a lack of damage. This carried into Final Fantasy's design where the 'Tank' classes - Paladin included! - were still capable of hitting big and hitting hard

Keep in mind though that this is an MMORPG. You can't have tank classes dealing big numbers. Otherwise why would you need any other job. Just bring DRKsx6 + healers. A gimped DRK that can't damage but can tank does not resemble DRK as much as a DRK that can do dmg but can't tank.

Most previous games lean towards the latter (a bit more dmg, a bit less tanky) instead of the other way round.

[Sylve]

The problem for me is that visually what is the appeal of a Gladiator after they add Dark knight?

Let me ask you ... What is the visual appeal of a Gladiator compared to the Marauder/Warrior? :P

[BlaiseArath]

Actually, it would be logical to go by past FF games. Otherwise why not make PLD a healer, WHM a DPS, and SCH a tank? It's an MMO, let's do whatever!

Well technically PLD, whos signature is a Knight with White Magic.... has not natural White Magic abilities what so ever. (I mean, it can cross class healing abilities but they're so nerf its entirely pointless for everything but solo or Stoneskin, but I suppose their healing magic being very impotent is actually accurate in most FF titles, save XI). That actually thoroughly disappointed me about the job.

In the same way, I expect since DRK is a tank, it will not have access to any Black Magic spells, which is also a signature of the job... as a DD it was likely they could have spells, similar to Ninjutsu/Mudras. I mean they could still work Black Magic into the job, but I don't see it happening, same with PLD having White Magic removed. That would actually be my biggest gripe with the job, but It wouldn't prevent me from enjoying it. However, I do thoroughly understand people being upset by DRK being a tank.

FFXI - Dark Knight is a job that has a multitude of attacks that make it deal more damage in exchange for HP or becoming more vulnerable to damage. Interestingly, they also have multiple attacks that generate considerable bonus aggro when used, and one of their abilities even gives them as much hate as Provoke! They also wear heavy armor and have decent HP; however, the community (not the designers) adopts them in the metagame as melee damage dealers.

I actually agree with some of your points in the post, but here this is just blatantly wrong and makes me question the rest of your post, I played XI since the beginning and still pay off and on today, so trust me when I say I know how it works in XI. It was introduced as the opposite of PLD. They were more or less opposing roles. PLD to tank, Dark to DD. DRKs enmity generation is a means to control their damage, if they go to hard they will die.

They don't tank well at all, they have no defensive abilities what so ever (until much much later when Dread Spikes was added), but It wouldn't be too hard for you to look at their Job Traits.

PLD gets Defense bonus and such in high values, DRK Gets attack bonus in very high numbers too, and almost all their Job Traits and Job abilities are damaging or increase their damage output in some way, where as PLD is the opposite.

Again, XI is not the best example to use if you're going for a "DRK wasn't a DD!" argument... A core description on the page of Dark on the FF Wiki lists this:

Their physical stats, with exception of Defense, are usually high, but their other stats depend on the game they appear in. The typical Dark Knight ability is Souleater, also known as Darkness, which allows them to sacrifice their HP to perform stronger attacks.

And this remains pretty true in almost every iteration of Dark Knight. Its a high damaging class that sacrifices HP to deal more damage. It some cases it can equip heavier armor ONLY because its a "Knight" like PLD. PLD is a "Knight" designed to tank, DRK is a "Knight" designed to kill. They're opposites, and it is portrayed as such in almost every single FF game. Anyone who was an actual fan of Final Fantasy would understand this, anyone who actually played a Final Fantasy with DRK in it would know this.

[MomomiMomi]

Interestingly, they also have multiple attacks that generate considerable bonus aggro when used, and one of their abilities even gives them as much hate as Provoke! They also wear heavy armor and have decent HP; however, the community (not the designers) adopts them in the metagame as melee damage dealers.

If you're implying that the hate generation on Souleater is a sign that it's a tanky job, you're being absurd. It's simply a part of the risky nature of Dark Knight's design: increasing your damage with increased risk to your own safety.

Also:

FF3 "Dark Knight" is not even the same job. It only shares the Dark Knight name in English.

Dark Knight does not have the highest HP in FFX-2. That would be Berserker.