T13, WAR or PLD MT?

[Sleigh]

Currently progressing on T13. From all clears I've seen, PLD is being used as MT. However, looking at the damage intervals in the first 50% of the boss's HP, it's roughly 50s between each Flatten, give or take depending on push timings. WAR could easily IB every single one and have IB up twice for one Flatten > 4 breaths and Vengeance another, and after that it's basically just Flatten + breath per Flatten.

Thoughts on this? Preferences? From my perspective:

Pros/cons of WAR MT:

+ More damage (especially with NIN in the party) for both MT and OT
+ Every hit gets easy, predictable mitigation, with up to 3 Vengeances of the 5/6 Flattens in first half
+ Holmgang can be used twice and still be up for add phase if needed

- PLD can block Flatten
- PLD can use HG and not only nullify a Flatten > 4 breaths, but doesn't require excessive healing to pick him up
- WAR is better at picking up the Wyverns and stance dancing, though it should be roughly as simple for PLD to establish aggro
- If WAR has to apply Storm's Path as MT, which in current gear we do, and there's no NIN in the party, the DPS increase is diminished greatly

Thoughts and/or experiences with the turn with WAR MT? We've run into situations where we're relying on Bulwark as a CD for a later Flatten which is not consistent. Also, I'd like to think the first world clears used PLD as MT primarily because it's more consistent and not because it's flat out better.

[Gangaloo]

Unfortunately PLD is flat out better as a MT at the current gear level.

You need to be pushing Bahamut into dive bombs 5 minutes into the fight or you probably won't beat the Enrage timer. If you're doing the push correctly you will never have to rely on Bulwark as a primary CD for flatten.

Holmgang is not a very good CD to use on Bahamut. For early progression purposes you want your WHM to solo heal all of Phase 1 and most of Phase 2, which means using as few unproc'd Cure 2's as possible. Having your WAR dip to 1 hp then having to heal him back to full is far from ideal.

A PLD with support from his group is practically unkillable in the first two phases with the correct phase pushing and CD usage.

[SpookyGhost]

So, you'd basically be looking at something like this if Flatten is every 50s:

1: IB + Vengeance
2: Foresight + IB + Infuriate + IB
3. IB + Thrill + Convalescence
Repeat

This is proooobably feasible? Would need to do testing on how stressful it is on heals, but if it's roughly the same as a PLD cooldowning his way through it then I'd say WAR MT is at least viable. PLD has the advantage of using Hallowed on one of the Flattens early on, as long as you're planning to use it for a specific Akh Morn and your group is comfortable enough not to die. Holmgang (unfortunately) doesn't work the same way and would put stress on your healers, specifically the WHM as Gangaloo said.

I'd say, for progression, PLD MT is more useful than WAR MT.

[Gangaloo]

So, you'd basically be looking at something like this if Flatten is every 50s:

1: IB + Vengeance
2: Foresight + IB + Infuriate + IB
3. IB + Thrill + Convalescence
Repeat

This is proooobably feasible? Would need to do testing on how stressful it is on heals, but if it's roughly the same as a PLD cooldowning his way through it then I'd say WAR MT is at least viable. PLD has the advantage of using Hallowed on one of the Flattens early on, as long as you're planning to use it for a specific Akh Morn and your group is comfortable enough not to die. Holmgang (unfortunately) doesn't work the same way and would put stress on your healers, specifically the WHM as Gangaloo said.

I'd say, for progression, PLD MT is more useful than WAR MT.

PLD's CD rotation is stronger than the WAR one you listed. Which is only a minor problem and doesn't really prevent a group with 130 weapons from killing the boss.


The secondary problem (which is the bigger one IMO) are Bahamut's auto attacks hit a PLD for 1600-2200 (More on a WAR). Blocking these with a shield to smooth out in coming damage is actually very important because it helps your solo healing WHM not fall behind and get forced into a situation where they need to play catch up using Cure 2.

When everyone becomes more geared, WAR will be the better MT choice because they do more damage while tanking and PLD will out DPS an OT WAR when using Sword Oath. So over all your group DPS goes up and you kill the boss faster.

Regardless, WAR is invaluable in this fight. MT or OT, a group will need one to make the encounter easier.

[Bashum]

Sorry to Hijack your thread a bit, but Gangaloo's comment raised a question.

At what point do Paladins become better dps than warriors? I play a warrior myself, and I've never once been out dps'd by a comparably geared pally. Perhaps I simply haven't ran into a Paladin who was optimizing his/her gear/cooldowns for offense yet?

[SpookyGhost]

In Sword Oath, with the same gear and both using perfect rotations, a PLD will consistently out-DPS a WAR (not in Defiance). This assumes that the WAR always keeps up Storm's Eye while MTing and that's pretty much all you need. Conversely, a WAR will out DPS a PLD in tank stance. Thus you end up with MT WAR + OT PLD being the optimal DPS combo for most fights. Sometimes this doesn't work out for one reason or another (namely if a mechanic needs to be Hallowed'd or if the PLD CD toolkit is better suited) but for the most part, as Gangaloo said, once you reach the gear threshold where WAR can MT it becomes the better choice for fights like this one.

[Ellatrix]

PLD MT, WAR OT

[Gangaloo]

Sorry to Hijack your thread a bit, but Gangaloo's comment raised a question.

At what point do Paladins become better dps than warriors? I play a warrior myself, and I've never once been out dps'd by a comparably geared pally. Perhaps I simply haven't ran into a Paladin who was optimizing his/her gear/cooldowns for offense yet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBC_fQ9FR_k

[Bashum]

Cool, thanks for the info. Will look into the proper Paladin rotations for when I level mine.

[Sleigh]

PLD's CD rotation is stronger than the WAR one you listed. Which is only a minor problem and doesn't really prevent a group with 130 weapons from killing the boss.


The secondary problem (which is the bigger one IMO) are Bahamut's auto attacks hit a PLD for 1600-2200 (More on a WAR). Blocking these with a shield to smooth out in coming damage is actually very important because it helps your solo healing WHM not fall behind and get forced into a situation where they need to play catch up using Cure 2.

When everyone becomes more geared, WAR will be the better MT choice because they do more damage while tanking and PLD will out DPS an OT WAR when using Sword Oath. So over all your group DPS goes up and you kill the boss faster.

Regardless, WAR is invaluable in this fight. MT or OT, a group will need one to make the encounter easier.

Thanks for the input.

Would you mind posting your CD rotation (including Virus + Apoc)? Currently we're not doing all we can to maximize our DPS (only gone in one real night so far, bad scheduling) and we push to Gigaflare right after 3rd Flatten, which I imagine ideally you want to skip. We're going to be changing some things but as of now that's where we're at.