Myth Message being used to excluded players

[Ellatrix]

They should remove the soldiery notification at the start of the runs so people like you will stop abusing it to exclude people who are more often than not quite capable of clearing the content as long as you ask people to learn the fight or know the basics from either experience, guides or videos within the PF listing instead of your no soldiery crap. The notification should be removed and instead just tell people at the end that they got a bonus because a new person was present.

No, because it's a really fast way to tell if someone is full of shit or not - if nobody speaks up and suddenly bonus message, you know someone is trying to sneak in. Also, many people tend to be very poor judges of their own capabilities. "I watched a video, this fight looks easy!" *dies to first set of plumes*. If you go back a few pages, you'd see that my requirements for my own farming parties are far above and beyond simply "no 100 soldiery", in fact I don't even put that in PF as it's implied. I also only use PF as a last resort, as I always build the majority of my party through FC/LS.

Like I said, go build your own party filled with the wonderful people who have video/experience but no clear, then tell me how it goes.

Just yesterday, I had a WHM trying to lecture me on how TitanX works in a clear party that I joined with some friends to get 100 bonus soldiery. They promptly died to bombs after heart. Good thing I run with people who can 4man TitanX since the randoms in the party all died despite saying "omg I have experience!!".

[Snugglebutt]

No, because it's a really fast way to tell if someone is full of shit or not - if nobody speaks up and suddenly bonus message, you know someone is trying to sneak in. Also, many people tend to be very poor judges of their own capabilities. "I watched a video, this fight looks easy!" *dies to first set of plumes*. If you go back a few pages, you'd see that my requirements for my own farming parties are far above and beyond simply "no 100 soldiery". I also only use PF as a last resort, as I always build the majority of my party through FC/LS.

With regards to your first sentence I already pointed out soldiery is not a reliable indication of who has the ability to clear the content and that simply saying know the fight is adequate, just because no soldiery pops up does not mean your group can clear the content.

Your second sentence is highly flawed, the same examples you used in your speech marks can equally be applied to those with clears as those without. Such as "This fight is easy!", yes it was easy because potentially previously you were carried or paid for a clear or "This should be easy because last time I did it we (as in not just him or her but also a lot of other people) cleared it!"...then dies from making mistakes, forgetting the mechanics or sheer incompetence.

Your third sentence is barely relevant as the discussion is about the naivety and redundancy of using 'no soldiery' as a restriction no matter how many other requirements you have in your PF listing, you could list a dozen or more things but the 'no soldiery' is the problem and what this discussion/thread is about.

Like I said, go build your own party filled with the wonderful people who have video/experience but no clear, then tell me how it goes.

As another person already stated you need to pay more attention to what people write...

I already told you in the very post your quoted that I have done just that a LOT in regards to forming PF's with the requirement being 'know the basics through videos, guides or experience' and I will ignore your rather biased and blatant attempt to discredit the results using what I crossed out above. I have such PF's done in a way which better gauges the differences between new players who have done research on the fight vs those who have clears under their belt while at same time limiting the quantity of new players which have not done such.

Just yesterday, I had a WHM trying to lecture me on how TitanX works in a clear party that I joined with some friends to get 100 bonus soldiery. They promptly died to bombs after heart. Good thing I run with people who can 4man TitanX since the randoms in the party all died despite saying "omg I have experience!!".

I can also list where the people who have the achievement and items have been the ones who caused most of the wiping and I gave such an example in another thread recently about how two players who have cleared T5 lots of times plus said were up to T9 were the ones causing an equal amount (if not more) of the wipes in a T5 run as the new players who were present. This was only a couple days ago and there are more examples of the incompetence of players who claim to be fully experienced and have the item/achievement. Such things happen to people with clears just like happens to people who have done the research but both on a good day where remember the fight, on the ball or recently researched it have just as much chance to clear it as each other.

[Ellatrix]

I sell runs. You don't need to lecture me on how having a clear doesn't necessarily equate experience.

Bonus message at start is simply an easy way to tell immediately, without any additional effort required, if a character has or has not cleared a fight.

[Zedd702]

Bonus message at start is simply an easy way to tell immediately, without any additional effort required, if a character has or has not cleared a fight.

You finally worded it right... And you are correct. That is ALL the soldiery bonus is supposed to tell a player, that there is someone in the party that has not "cleared" the fight, but does not say that they have no exp or not know what to do in it...

Bravo *claps*

The rest of your post was irrelevant.

[Snugglebutt]

I sell runs. You don't need to lecture me on how having a clear doesn't necessarily equate experience.

Bonus message at start is simply an easy way to tell immediately, without any additional effort required, if a character has or has not cleared a fight.

Yes it tells you that they have not cleared the fight, that is all it tells you and it does not tell you they cannot clear it any more or less than someone who has previously done so.

It should not be used to exclude people given it's many flaws and the abusing of that notification that people do which is why myself and many others are advocating for the soldiery bonus pop up notification to be removed at the start of the run while keeping the bonus message at the end present once the run is over. You are not stopped from vote kicking a very incompetent player who causes a vast amount of wipes (including new players who did not research, new players who did do research or someone who has a clearance under his or her belt) just because no soldiery bonus window popped up at the start.

The soldiery notification at the start of a run is not needed, it is not even remotely a reliable way to judge someones ability to clear content and it is being abused these days in both seeing that a party does not include a bonus so someone drops out/ditches the group and also abused in a way to exclude people from content despite no evidence that the person being excluded is incapable of clearing it or unwilling to do so just because they have that bonus which bring to a run.

It might have originally been implemented with good intentions having that information pop up at the start of a run but it is far from being a good thing at this time, it is being misused and abused in multiple ways not just to exclude people based on prejudice and ignorance instead of the ability of the player but also by people fishing for bonus only runs since when no bonus they might ask to be vote kicked or purposefully playing badly in order to get vote kicked but even if not vote kicked the 30 minute lock out is only just slightly longer than most dungeon runs so they will potentially make equally if not more by fishing for bonus ones unless unlucky in coming across many non-bonus ones in a row.

Feel free to keep the notification at the end of the run since would be a nice surprise reward from actually staying there and finishing a run. But the notification at the start of a run is not working as intended, it is being abused on many levels and it needs to be removed from the start of a run.

I would greatly appreciate it if the mods pass this information onto those who are in a position to evaluate and fix this problem, resolve the multiple abuses of it by simply removing the pop up at the start but keeping the notification at the end.

[NorthernLadMSP]

Just because you have cleared something, doesn't make you awesome.

I'll provide a perfect example. Last night I joined a Shiva EX farming party. Our initial group was amazing. We literally one-shotted the fight at least 15 times before one of the tanks had to go raid. So, he dropped and PF opened back up. New tank joins who has cleared Shiva EX (not to mention T9). Multiple times he kills half the people in the party (and ended up causing wipes each time) because he wasn't smart enough to know that when Shiva pulls out her bow, you DON'T AIM HER AT THE PARTY. Party leader ended up kicking the tank (after we asked a few times to stop) because this person (who had previous clears) was causing us wipes, when we had not wiped one single time before with the previous tank.

That is just one of many examples I could provide that shows that a win does not equal knowledge or skill.

However, I do agree with Ellatrix's disdain for people who try to sneak in farming parties trying to get an easy win. I have no patience for that either.

[Kinseykinz]

Explain to me how one single person can mess up a raid reliably at 1-5%. What the hell were the other 7 doing?

Moogle EX-you're the healer. DPS is too low and/or LB is consistantly too late and party wipes to Momento. Nothing you can do about it. Even if you did your role 100% correctly, Esuna'ing all the debuffs, kept everyone alive, since Momento is a 1-shot party wide kill that happens if the DPS check isn't made, you lose. Every time.

I know this because it happened to me. I learned the battle as WHM. Did my job, even DPS'd as hard as I could at the end...but the actual DPSers weren't doing their job well.
So I switched to my like ilvl88ish, I never play it endgame, DRG, and we won. Not because I'm amazing at DRG (LOL)and not at WHM ...but because I understood when to hit the damn 'LB' button. That's. It. So yeah, it's beyond possible for your to be doing your role properly, and well and to still consistantly lose.

[Zedd702]

Moogle EX-you're the healer. DPS is too low and/or LB is consistantly too late and party wipes to Momento. Nothing you can do about it. Even if you did your role 100% correctly, Esuna'ing all the debuffs, kept everyone alive, since Momento is a 1-shot party wide kill that happens if the DPS check isn't made, you lose. Every time.

I know this because it happened to me. I learned the battle as WHM. Did my job, even DPS'd as hard as I could at the end...but the actual DPSers weren't doing their job well.
So I switched to my like ilvl88ish, I never play it endgame, DRG, and we won. Not because I'm amazing at DRG (LOL)and not at WHM ...but because I understood when to hit the damn 'LB' button. That's. It. So yeah, it's beyond possible for your to be doing your role properly, and well and to still consistantly lose.

Exactly. Same happened to me, except that we double KO'd KMM with LB and I saw everyone life go to 0 but the tanks life did not drop completely before the cutscene, which saved us in the end lol and we had at least half the party with no clear achievement. I was WHM in that run.

[NozomiKei]

In the last week I have learned and cleared ( and went on to farm ) shiva[...] What I did was I made a LS. Every time I'd meet some decent players treating content seriously, I'd throw them an invite. I then could gather a good group of like minded players willing to tackle content they havent cleared. [...]I did my time" so to say.

Yes! This. I started on Shiva ex the day after patch came out and spent many hours learning with everyone else (some groups learned more than others) until after a couple 10+ hour play days I ran with a friend/ex FC mate who had an LS that shedecided to use for compiling a list of competent shiva players willing to grind. The whole time I was learning I called out moves on TS, until I could do it in my sleep(I actually did dream of Shiva runs for few days XD ). I kept gathering more people that were good enough to clear if we just didn't have to teach new people every frickin' time we went in until I got some great groups that farmed it. I made my own ls for people I enjoyed partying with who had cleared it and started pulling first from that group then supplementing with decent people without a clear in the first ls and then putting up a PF.

As the days went on of people sneaking into the group that had only watched videos or had been to 50% but clearly had no clue when I asked for experience to 35%(and no sighting of the BLM rod yet) I got stricter with the PF; "need to have cleared and be able to at least listen on TS". Even then I had people who tried to join who: Had no clear, and refused to get on TS! I did my time, I taught whole parties the run; at some point I want my frickin' clear/gear. Now that I have my rod I'm happy to teach more people the fight, but when I don't feel like bashing my face against the same wall for several hours I don't want to deal with inexperienced people trying to sneak into my party.

I have seen the "myth message" being used to discriminate on Sargatanas but only on PF which I think is reasonable. As for joining a PF party when you don't meet the requirements listed: Send a tell. Tell me why you believe you should be allowed in. I very well may allow you to join for a number of reasons, one of which being that you bothered to send me a tell. You took time to consider my group and myself and demonstrated that you could be a team player. I still might not let you in, but it almost certainly isn't something personal.

As others have said, don't be afraid to start your own Party Finder listing for learning; I've had lots of learning groups that made it twice as far as "clear/farm" groups.

[Ellatrix]

Yes it tells you that they have not cleared the fight, that is all it tells you and it does not tell you they cannot clear it any more or less than someone who has previously done so.

So according to you, having cleared a fight says completely nothing about someone's ability to clear it.

lol

Case 1: Person has not cleared it. This means they have not yet demonstrated the effort to find some way to clear it, be it learning parties, built their own static, etc.
Case 2: Person has cleared it. They may have performed in the fight well enough to clear it at least once. They may have been carried, or maybe not.

Case 1 is black and white. They have not cleared it. Case 2 is grey area, but normally leans into the 'they probably have some idea of what to do'.

I do not care at all about partial kill experience. This is binary to me: either you've been in the instance when the boss died or you haven't. If you haven't, you have no place at all in my party, and I have no reason at all to risk the time of the other people in the party if you turn out to be the DRG from the Titan 8-Bit Theater.

I have no reason to invest my time into randoms. I invite good players into linkshells (who first and foremost, demonstrate the ability to read the entire PF!) to keep in touch with them and mutually expand network contacts to find other capable players.