Myth Message being used to excluded players

[Snugglebutt]

I had a little rant about this not long ago myself (link below) as it also annoys me greatly how ignorant such a stance is regarding exclusion because of soldiery. I would welcome the removal of soldiery notice at the start of the run, it's currently being abused and abused out of ignorance so SE would do well to remove it from the start of a run and just award bonus at the end if a new player was present.

Here.

While if soldiery bonus comes up you know will be dealing with someone new to the place, it is far from reality that those new players cannot complete that content as most do the research on the place before putting themselves in DF/PF for it. In my opinion anyone who kicks someone just because of soldiery bonus should be punched in the face because they are making the wrong assumption that a new player is less capable of clearing the content than someone who has the done it before which is not true and I have explained why before many times including in the link above.

Quite often people who have done the content before will cause just as many wipes in their arrogance and overconfidence, over reliance on memory from doing it perhaps weeks or months ago plus the fact those with clears have sometimes paid to get that clear or been carried through by others and is no indication they have the ability to clear it themselves when not carried by other people like before, just because they have the achievement or item to link means very little in reality. While a lot of new players read the guides and watch the videos of it right before join group to do it so their knowledge of it is fresh in their memory.

The soldiery bonus is not a valid excuse to exclude people from content yet some people are too stupid to realise this and just make a massive generalization that new player (soldiery bonus) = bad, incompetent or incapable player which is pure fallacy and because of this it should no longer be listed when begin a run due to the way people are abusing it out of ignorance. I recently did T5 with some so called pro players and they caused as many wipes as the new players despite bragging about how they had cleared it many times and were on T9 of which that is just one example out of dozens that I come across recently where the 'cleared before' players have been just as bad and sometimes worse than the new players who have soldiery pop up from themselves.

[Sessurea]

The soldiery bonus is not a valid excuse to exclude people from content yet some people are too stupid to realise this.

How do you expect to farm content without making use of the only way to secure if people have cleared it? people who have learned and cleared content to the point they are fluent at it deserve to be able to 1 shot content. This doesn't mean that people who makes these pfs don't help other people. It just means that at that point in time, they wish to farm content.

I also know the pain of knowing you can clear content, but not having kill, but you just gotta keep on going with the "full exp, going for kill" pfs.

Se could add a check box for kill requirement to PF , and it would be in no way unreasonable imo.

Practice groups are practice groups and farm groups are farm groups. + also, lol, if people don't like other peoples pf, make their own? whole thread is a non issue.

Ofc, it's true people who haven't a clue of fights get a kill somehow through carry, and people who don't have a kill but are the best In the world sadly do get excluded from kill groups, but this is internet, how are people supposed to filter? The 100 soldiery is atm the only to have a reasonable chance to getting a 1 shot farm group together,

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I'm just going to clarify that the point of the bonus message was never to single out or filter players, but simply to notify party members that they will receive a bonus for it being someone's "first" run - an incentive for experienced players to help newer ones. That's just it.

They aren't there for YOUR tomes. Technically, you're there for theirs, AND yours. Naturally, we all know most players aren't inclined to throw themselves at tougher content purely for the sake of helping someone else clear it (hence the incentives), and there are some players who try to slip into farm/kill/experienced-only parties hoping to lean on others, but that's more a matter of personal integrity. When a bonus message starts becoming a exclusionary tool, you're doing it wrong.

[Zedd702]

How do you expect to farm content without making use of the only way to secure if people have cleared it?

This is all that matters in what I am about to say.

That means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Just because a single player has this achievement, doesn't mean they are pro. It could also mean that they were carried by a team of pros. This is what many people do not understand, but ignorance is bliss right? People need to give a benefit of the doubt of player experience. If they go in a fight and it is obvious that they do not know what they are doing, that's a different story, but if they understand the mechanics, through dungeon guides and just need fight exp, then let them have a shot of it, but if they are just winging T5+ or EX primals without a lick of visual guidance, then that's a completely different story.

I agree with snugglebutt COMPLETELY!

I'm just going to clarify that the point of the bonus message was never to single out or filter players, but simply to notify party members that they will receive a bonus for it being someone's "first" run - an incentive for experienced players to help newer ones. That's just it.

They aren't there for YOUR tomes. Technically, you're there for theirs, AND yours. Naturally, we all know most players aren't inclined to throw themselves at tougher content purely for the sake of helping someone else clear it (hence the incentives), and there are some players who try to slip into farm/kill/experienced-only parties hoping to lean on others, but that's more a matter of personal integrity. When a bonus message starts becoming a exclusionary tool, you're doing it wrong.

She nailed it here.

[Ellatrix]

The 100 soldiery bonus is simply the easiest way to see if someone has or has not cleared a fight before. Sure, some can get carried but it's still a really easy metric and a really easy one to use before the fight even starts.

If you think you're entitled to join a farm party without clearing it, that's hilarious. Go build your own 'farm' PF consisting of only people who claim to have had the boss to 1~5% and then tell me how well you do.

[Pterois]

just stopping by to say... dont show the message in the beginning but instead have it pop up at the end like... someone was new so you get more points yay!

[Zedd702]

Hot air

Sigh... I suppose someone has pull with a mod who deleted every relative post to the nonsense you present.

Here, I will try to be a little more polite since you clearly missed the point of the thread. It's not about farming. The OP did not mention anything about farming parties, but merely people gauging others experiences on the myth messages...

lern2read.

[Ellatrix]

Sigh... I suppose someone has pull with a mod who deleted every relative post to the nonsense you present.

Here, I will try to be a little more polite since you clearly missed the point of the thread. It's not about farming. The OP did not mention anything about farming parties, but merely people gauging others experiences on the myth messages...

lern2read.

Learn to read? Try reading my post where bonus message is merely the easiest metric to use to see if someone has cleared the content before or not.

There is a 100% chance that when the message pops up, that character has not completed the fight before.

[Zedd702]

Learn to read? Try reading my post where bonus message is merely the easiest metric to use to see if someone has cleared the content before or not.

There is a 100% chance that when the message pops up, that character has not completed the fight before.

And yet you went on a rant about entitlement on farming parties... I know how to read, but you on the other hand... it's questionable

[Snugglebutt]

The 100 soldiery bonus is simply the easiest way to see if someone has or has not cleared a fight before. Sure, some can get carried but it's still a really easy metric and a really easy one to use before the fight even starts.

If you think you're entitled to join a farm party without clearing it, that's hilarious. Go build your own 'farm' PF consisting of only people who claim to have had the boss to 1~5% and then tell me how well you do.

Likewise if you think having an achievement, an item, no soldiery means someone by default capable of actually clearing something then your ignorant of the flaws within that stance. The people who think soldiery is a good way to judge the competence and ability of another player are the incredibly naive. I have had people with achievements and item links wiping the group almost as much as those with soldiery, yes you will get the new players who do not bother learning the fight one way or another and yes they may cause wipes from time to time but you also get a vast amount of people with clears who will cause wipes constantly.

The way you get people who know the fight is not by saying no soldiery, it is by saying know the fight and that is all you need to say...it includes watched videos, read guides or experienced in game and deters most non-experienced and non-research players form signing up. Someone who has done the research is just as likely to be as competent as someone which has a clear or achievement to their name and merely saying only those who know the fight is enough in most cases to get only those people.

The flaws in your no soldiery stance are not limited potentially a person carried by the competence of others as to why some get that achievement or that item, it is not limited to the competence of others that might have been paid to get that potentially incompetent person the achievement or item...the fact remains on top of those having potentially occurred it could also be the case that achievement or item listing person might not have even done the place in week/months or maybe only done it once and may have forgotten the mechanics compared to the new player actually reading the guides and watching the videos many times on that very same day and as such the new player actually knows the mechanics better than the person with the achievement/item since it is fresh still in their memory.

I do a lot of EX farm PF's of late for mounts and such and a lot of the wipes are from the people who claimed to have cleared it before, what a nice and wise person does is list as a requirement of knowing the basics but what a selfish, naive and lazy person does is exclude people based on soldiery. Knowing the basics includes having done it before and/or having read the guides and/or having watched the videos explaining the mechanics and phases of the fight including potentially if good guide or video explaining your job within it.

There is no 'good' reason to exclude someone based on soldiery, you are just as capable of voting out someone who is new and never bothered to read the guides or watch the videos and as such leads to deaths as you are from voting out the people who claim to have cleared but keep on failing still. Fact is your not excluding people based on the actual ability to do something, you are excluding them based on your own ignorance while using a highly flawed baseline for that exclusion.

In my experience just as many achievement/item/cleared players tend to get voted out as new ones within the party because of wipes/deaths...which is based on PF's which lists just knowing the basics through guide/video or having done it before and that better gauges the difference between new players who did the research vs players with achievement/items since new players who never did the research don't end up joining often even without the 'soldiery=kick' crap. Just saying know the basics or know the fight is ample restriction if want to restrict it in a less selfish and less ignorant way compared to no soldiery allowed.

They should remove the soldiery notification at the start of the runs so people like you will stop abusing it to exclude people who are more often than not quite capable of clearing the content as long as you ask people to learn the fight or know the basics from either experience, guides or videos within the PF listing instead of your no soldiery crap. The notification should be removed and instead just tell people at the end that they got a bonus because a new person was present.