Hey, Sincerely Thank You SE for easing up on Coil

[Gextiv]

No SCOB nerfs in patch notes. Only Ramuh is getting echo.

Nice! Though I've beaten the old man, now I should usually get past adds with party finder "farm" groups on Leviathan.


Praise Hydaelyn \o/

[NyarukoW]

...
Fact: The game is barely a year old. ... WoW, FFXI, and Everquest ... This isn't subjective that the game is barely over a year old and still has little content.

I know I probably don't win any points for arguing this. But you continue to confuse fact with you subjective evaluations.
Fact is the game barely a year old. It is your subjective opinion that it is young.
Fact WoW, FFXI, EQ, etc. are older and has more content. But it is your subjective opinion that FFXIV ARR has little content.

This is how you get yourself into logical fallacies and false equivalences.

...
And stop acting like everyone having problems getting T5 down or some of the tougher fights is a victim. ...

I've never taken that position about players clearing any content. But I have pointed out that when that select group of experienced players continually seek to exclude and even advocate for tools like the "no newbies wanted" checkbox of the PF and DF, they are doing a service to the game and community. I am advocating that people be more patient and give more players for leeway and so what if it is a few dozen wipes. Wipes are part of the game and expecting a win 100% of the time is unreasonable. If people took this attitude, it would greatly help the community and players as a whole.

But the reality is people farming T9 are selling SCOB turns for 60 mil gil. That is a fact.

[Tiggy]

I know I probably don't win any points for arguing this. But you continue to confuse fact with you subjective evaluations.
Fact is the game barely a year old. It is your subjective opinion that it is young.
Fact WoW, FFXI, EQ, etc. are older and has more content. But it is your subjective opinion that FFXIV ARR has little content.

This is how you get yourself into logical fallacies and false equivalences.

There are several MMO's out that make FFXIV look like an infant.
- Everquest 15 years
- Ultima Online 16 Years
- Final Fantasy XI 12 years

Older games have more content, or do you really intend to tell me FFXIV stands up to XI in terms of content? (Yes, I know the older it is it has more content, but that's the point.)
Until such a time as FFXIV has more content everything can't be divided so simply into super easy or super hard. Some content will be spread out to create a mid game. Older more mature MMO's have fully developed mid games due to moving older content into that niche. We don't have that niche in this game yet because we have very little content. Now that SCOB is unlocked we finally have the beginnings of one. We have a clearly defined easy game (CT, ST, FCOB, dungeons), midgame (Second Coil, Some Ex Primals, Ultima Hard Mode), and hard game (newest ex primal, TCOB) and it's finally beginning to flesh out. We are only now after all seeing the end of the first full development life cycle as we approach the first expansion.

You keep using those words, but I have reasons to believe what I think so I reject them and I do not think you know what they mean.
Unless of course a 1 year old game somehow doesn't seem young compared to games over a decade old, or that somehow it's content maturity even stands a chance against those incumbents. I'd love to see that argument.

But the reality is people farming T9 are selling SCOB turns for 60 mil gil. That is a fact.

SOME people do that. Not everyone. You need to realize that your judging the whole by the actions of a few. That's textbook discrimination and prejudice. Some people can be, for lack of a better word, complete d-bags. That doesn't mean those people are limited to the raider group. There are just as many that don't raid at all. I take offense that just because I raid I must sell runs, or I must clearly do "clears only" pug groups, or any other horrible thing. You don't know me, or anything about me, or anything about anyone else here on this forum. Acting like we all do that is inaccurate, and since you love it, a logical fallacy.

The assertion that some raiders are bad people therefore all raiders are bad people is false.

You see this kind of assessment is subjective by its nature.
Th

1 year is young compared to the 15 Ultima online has been around for and it claims to have created the genre. It's not subjective that FFXIV is a young game at all. You're criteria for what designates an MMO as "old" is flawed and your grasping at straws. Comparing a 1 year old game to a game that just launched is a very poor way to judge what constitutes an old MMO.

The problems is when you do NOT use precise language you are subject to being lead into logical fallacies and fall into the trap of false equivalences.

The problem is you can only nitpick failures at being extremely precise because you have no other leg to stand on. You know exactly what I'm trying to say, but you degrade down to arguing about how to determine the age of an MMO and semantics? Seriously man? You're the one acting like all raiders are terrible people. Concentrate on your own fallacies.

And so you make false assertions and deliberately put words in my mouth that I never said.

Fact remains people are selling SCOB turns for 60 mil. Also fact we see PFs with requirements must have clears or multiple clears. What does this imply? The select group of those experienced players (not all) are not treating the the rest of the player base with the proper respect and not being inclusive of the rest of the player base, and this kind of bad behavior needs to stop.

I think most people in this thread can appreciate the fact that your rhetoric and the words you just said disagree with one another.

And so you make false assertions and deliberately put words in my mouth that I never said.

I never said you spoke those words. I was paraphrasing the way your rhetoric was making you sound using my own words in a stand logic If A Therfore B format. Once again nitpicking. You keep bringing up logic and fallacies so my apologies if I thought you'd understand the form.

I'm out of posts so I'm done for the day. Done having every possible way to nitpick an English sentence to sidetrack and distract from an argument when the meaning was clear as it is. Pretty insane that people just can't have a conversation or admit when maybe they went overboard in their rhetoric.

[ReplicaX]

No SCOB nerfs in patch notes.

They clearly stated at FanFest that they will evaluate SCOB after patch release before making any type of adjustments. The same for Echo as well, like they did with 1st Coil.

[NyarukoW]

...but I have reasons to believe what I think so I reject them and I do not think you know what they mean.
...I'd love to see that argument.

Simple case, your friend new to FFXIV watching you play FFXIV ARR friend ask you, "Are you playing a new game?"
Obviously the answer is no, it is not a new game, it actually old, to be precise a little of over a year old. So it is "younger" than many, but it is plenty old. You see this kind of assessment is subjective by its nature.

Next they ask, "what do you do in this game"? You tell them that you have nothing to do meaning there is little content? Certainly not. Again this is a subjective assessment. It has less than many, but compared to vast majority of games like COD (or any of its iterations) it has way more content.

The problems is when you do NOT use precise language you are subject to being lead into logical fallacies and fall into the trap of false equivalences.

...The assertion that some raiders are bad people therefore all raiders are bad people is false.

And so you make false assertions and deliberately put words in my mouth that I never said.

Fact remains people are selling SCOB turns for 60 mil. Also fact we see PFs with requirements must have clears or multiple clears. What does this imply? The select group of those experienced players (not all) are not treating the the rest of the player base with the proper respect and not being inclusive of the rest of the player base, and this kind of bad behavior needs to stop.

[ShanaShirayuki]

Just let the casuals have their story mode version of Coil to enjoy the story, and let the raiders have content that won't be watered down to keep that sense of accomplishment when they clear. As someone else mentioned in an earlier comment, it would be wrong to see those who didn't put in as much effort running around in high end raiding gear.

As a side note, the way players are getting offended by terms such as "casual" and "hardcore" is getting a bit ridiculous. There's already enough PC bullsh*t going on in real life, no need to bring that tripe into a game. Those terms are what they are, no getting around that. Either you have the time and dedication to put into clearing difficult content, or you don't (but still able to enjoy most of the game).

[Krr]

"Stop being mean to raiders!" Said the raiders, functionally gating content behind million-gil barriers and not even letting other players play in that content once they pay.

"Stop being mean to raiders!" Said the raiders, who then in the other breath call bitterly everyone who doesn't static raid "low skill" as if non-game skill requirements for raiding, such as social connections and timeslot availability, never existed and never will exist.

"Stop being mean to raiders!" Said the raid community, who then went and made 6 PFs on Tuesday that advertised their intent to ban players based on a boolean coding variable that they claim indicates "experience" or "skill" when in reality you could get it simply by being corpse-carried.

[Exstal]

Good thing you edited your original post, would have earned you a warning!

[Krr]

Good thing you edited your original post, would have earned you a warning!

Believe it or not, I actually didn't receive a warning the last time everyone got riled up for 5 pages about that joke.

But let's not get too meta here. The last thing anyone wants is for this thread to turn into a 2-bard party.

[Exstal]

Believe it or not, I actually didn't receive a warning the last time everyone got riled up for 5 pages about that joke.

But let's not get too meta here. The last thing anyone wants is for this thread to turn into a 2-bard party.

I dislike both camps of people, too many tears, finger pointing and nothing getting done in places where it matters. But that's just my opinion on it.