Paladins are a rodeo clown. Warriors are a matador.

[SirTaint]

Mind posting your BiS Arriyala? I've seen so many PLD BiS's that theres no real definitive one. I'd love to take a peek at yours. Mine doesnt involve the HA Pants, its a Max Parry Build BiS.

Ofcourse if you meant BiS DPS Set then yea i use the HA pants in those situations for sure. I think im hovering around 8.2k HP, 285 DET, 391 CRIT using all VIT accessories (BiS DPS MT set)

I consider this BiS for everything but Savage Coil.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/O09P

[PROBOUND]

I consider this BiS for everything but Savage Coil.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/O09P

Thx very interesting. Do you MT in this set as well?

[SirTaint]

Thx very interesting. Do you MT in this set as well?

I dont have the legs but yes I tank everything in a similar set.

We started full STR solo tanking t9 3 weeks ago. But an aggressive set like the one I posted would need some competent healers.

[Giantbane]

The "problem" is that WAR is more flexible while the PLD is more simple. So the WAR *can* do more damage and generate more threat than a PLD while tanking a single target, but cannot do so unless they give up something else.

Single Target
The PLD is simple and all in one. Halone generates high threat, it's their best damage combo and applies a defensive debuff (STR down).

The WAR gets 3 options that all do something specific. Damage (Storm's Eye), Threat (Butcher's Block), Defensive (Storm's Path). But you can't do all 3 at once so you have to pick what you want to focus on. Because SE only lasts for 15 seconds and SP only lasts for 20 seconds it is impossible to maintain both buffs 100% of the time while generating a high level of threat. The loss of SE is especially pronounced in a 2 tank scenario because you're losing damage from both you and your PLD off tank.

So you have to choose:
Want to do more damage than a PLD? Then you will either generate less threat (no BB) or take a lot more damage (no SP). As a MT neither of those may be worth it (depends on the fight).

Want to do more threat than a PLD? Simple fact is a WAR cannot out threat a PLD over time unless he either drops SE or SP from the rotation entirely. So this means more damage taken or the WAR isn't doing any more damage.

So in a standard tanking scenario, where you want to generate a lot of threat and take as little damage as possible, the WAR MT isn't any better than the PLD MT in terms of damage, threat or otherwise. A WAR *can* shine because his flexibility allows him to adapt to the fight, trading mitigation or threat for damage when desired, but this is going to depend on the fight as to when this is and isn't possible.


AoE
WaR does more AoE damage and generates more AoE threat
PLD takes less AoE damage

The WAR damage/threat advantage is pretty obvious as overpower actually does damage while flash does not. Overpower can also crit, and is made stronger by maim, unchained, berserk and inner release. Flash cannot crit, and is unaffected by fight or flight. Oddly enough, the only buff that does effect Flash is the WAR's berserk.

WAR vs. PLD damage mitigation is pretty balanced in a single target scenario. But that requires the steady use of inner beast. In an AoE scenario, you're not building wrath very fast (or at all), so the WAR is losing some of his mitigation. WAR also loses the SP debuff. Similar to the SP debuff, the PLD also loses the halone debuff. However, the PLD doesn't lose anything else whether he's tanking 1 or 100. The PLD actually can gain mitigation if the enemies are effected by the blind debuff from flash. This gives the PLD the defensive advantage while AoE tanking.

So in a sense it's balanced. Whether or not you consider it *good* balance is another thing. I think the WAR should be able to maintain/generate *some* wrath during AoE without having to resort entirely to single target combos. And I also think the PLDs AoE threat/damage capabilities should be closer to the WARs (even if it isn't the same).

[Domira]

Snip

This sums it up nicely, excellent post.

[Giantbane]

There isn't any point in comparing Shield Oath to Defiance. They are both so similar and accomplish the same thing it's not worth mentioning. The 20% less damage Paladin will take Warrior already has more extra HP to make up for it. But once Warrior's litttle chunk of extra HP is gone it's no longer as much of a meatshield.

PLD is better at taking multiple hard hitting hits.
WAR is better at taking one really hard hitting hit.

This is false.

PLD with 8001 hp in shield oath takes a 10,000 damage hit. This is reduced by 20% to 8000 damage. The PLD is left with 1 hp.
WAR with 8001 hp in defiance now has 10,001 hp, takes a 10,000 damage hit. The WAR is left with 1 hp.

So they're both equal in their ability to take big hits.

The same PLD then receives 8,000 hp worth of healing. The PLD now has 8001hp and his life is full again.
The same WAR then receives 8,000 hp worth of healing. This is boosted to 9600hp. The WAR now has 9601/10,000 hp and his life is almost full.

So they're close, but not equal, in their ability to take repeated hits, as the healers ability to restore lost HP is very close between the two classes. But don't forget that the WAR has the ability to restore their own health via inner beast, second wind and a longer lasting blood bath. This pretty much makes up for the fact that they require a little more healing than the PLD. So it's still balanced over all.

[Izsha]

A lot of pld see all these multiple combos and extra abilities and say war has SO MANY TOOLS! War is so FLEXIBLE! OK pld can have a 3rd hit after riot blade that adds 10% str reduction. But we're taking it away from halone. Congrats now your 'flexible' like war with path and BB. Oh you want ib? Sure but take off your shield. You want a maim effect? K but shield oath now reduces more damage like war and you loose AA buff in sword oath. You want off gcd stun? K but it's 50 pot and has a 20 sec cool down.

The reason war has more tools and pld seems lacking is because pld has sooo much built in. You don't need a mitigation and enmity combo. They are the same. You don't need IB because your shield does it passively. You don't need maim because you automatically get AA in OT and less reduction in MT mode. You know what I'd kill for? A 300 pot off gcd move with a 30 sec cooldown. Pld has the most powerful off gcd abilities in the game. Scorn and spirits are 10 pot/sec EACH. War has 1 off gcd move that is 0.25 pot/sec and silence is golden. I wish I had an aoe blind move that didn't interrupt my combos. Oh wait it's built into pld aoe threat.

Pld is already flexible and has all the tools. They come built in. That is not some detriment. The reason pld is so 'simple' is because it's brutally efficient. Again I reiterate, war is not somehow superior because it has lots of buttons because plds buttons have more effects built in. I prefer war because it's more engaging and fun to me, not because it's more effective. In fact it's often frustrating when pld can achieve the same result with less hassle. Aoe threat is the only time that is not the case and that still costs tons of TP.

More buttons doesn't mean more stuff. It means dividing stuff you already have into more buttons.

[Eye_Gore]

Are you trying to bash Rodeo Clowns? Do you know what that clown does?

The rodeo clown is the most DANGEROUS job, 'cause he gets CLOSEST to the BULL. He gets the BEST of the BULL! HOOK to the left! HOOK to the right! And if the bull rider's in trouble, he's gotta protect him, even if it means gettin' his ribs pulled out, or bein' freight-trained...

Freight-trained?

Run over, just like a freight train, only with a bull, it's worse, cause a freight train don't BACK UP and FINISH the JOB. Later on I'll show you how to lie out on the stretcher when the ambulance comes.