People kicking new players for watching cs's.....just stupid.

[KaiKatzchen]

Square Enix may update the list of Prohibited Activities at http://sqex.to/ffxiv.na.support at any time. The current Prohibited Activities are as follows:

3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers.

http://support.eu.square-enix.com/ru...1&tag=users_en

Prohibited Activities
Disruptive behavior that negatively affects the experience of others or the service itself is strictly forbidden within FINAL FANTASY XIV.

Inappropriate Behavior
Our Definition of Inappropriate Behavior
Disturbances that do not fall under the harassment category but are intended to prevent or hinder game play for others are considered inappropriate.

FINAL FANTASY XIV respect individual player’s unique play style. However, GM may take action to players whose play style prevents other player’s game play.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...6&id=5382&la=1


If a player is honesty new and wants to watch a CS and is kicked, that is behavior that negatively affects the experience of others. The players who kicked are disrupting or interfering with their game experience. They are preventing or hindering that new players right to game play, and are not respecting the individual players unique play style.

Seeing that this game is about people playing the way they want, then yes both sides can make party finder groups. If players want to be 100% assured that they can or cannot watch cut scenes, do a party finder. If players choose not to do a party finder, then players can not complain about how people wish to play. If people wanna speed run, then do it. If you want to watch CS's do it. If the styles conflict within the group, and it tells the duty that there is someone new, talk about it first and find out if they wish to (do not force them to skip) watch cut scenes or not. If they so wish to, players can not force them to skip or kick them for their decision.

New players who wish to watch CS's, just watch them. It is a new players right as a paying customer regardless of if they have time to use Party Finder or want to do Duty Finder.

Party finder is more structured, and it's easier to set up exactly what players want in the game. Duty finder is not, players get what they get and they'll have to deal with it. If that mean's watching cut scenes, then they're gonna have to let people do it. No one can or should demand that people skip, it is how they wish to play, and they are protected by the ToS and the User agreement that the players clicked yes on, but probably didn't read.


If they are honestly AFK, trolling etc, kicking is within the right of the player. But it is against the ToS and the Use Agreement to kick someone for their play style, period. This applies to both sides of the coin. If players end up with people in DF that wanna go fast and wanna watch Cut Scenes, then figure it out together or use party Finder to assure players get the group they want. But know if a group kick someone, be them a CS watcher or a speed runner, and they are reported for a unjust kick:

Players found to be committing prohibited activities within FINAL FANTASY XIV will be penalized by SQUARE ENIX in its sole discretion. The different types of account penalties that can be issued against a service account are further explained in the “Account Penalties” section.

If SQUARE ENIX finds evidence of activities that violate the FINAL FANTASY XIV User Agreement or SQUARE ENIX Account Terms of Use, or otherwise interfere with the operation of FINAL FANTASY XIV, SQUARE ENIX will issue penalties against the player’s service account. All account penalties are issued after an investigation has been conducted.
Players that have previously received an account penalty must take extra care to abide by the rules and policies to avoid losing access to their service account permanently as the severity of account penalties taken against a service account increase with each instance, up to termination of the service account or even the Square Enix account. Certain behaviors, however, may warrant immediate termination.

But above all, don't be rude to other players no matter what the situation. Everyone was new at one point, and I'm sure some of the players who are saying 'just skip the cut scene' probably watched it themselves when they did the run. New players have every right to experience this game the way they wish too. Be respectful of that.

No where on the vote kick option does it say "Kick for watching a cut scene" so it's not meant to be used that way.

[AzakaTonnerre]

Is it possible to do Duty Roulette with a full party now?

The purpose of adding the story line to the duty roulette was to encourage individuals to do those two missions in order to help lower the queue times for people who need them. Hence the reason for the myth "bonus" as a enticement. If they wanted people just to do the DR with a full party simply for the purpose of getting myth (without assisting others) they would have added that feature.

It's not too hard to understand that concept. People just choose to ignore it.

[VesperValveto]

snip

This has all been addressed already, but since you didn't bother to read through the thread before commenting, allow me to post this again:

However, there is one topic in this thread that seems to be an underlying point of contention: reasons for dismissal that are not strictly "AFK", "Offline", "Harassment", or "Cheating". I would like to address this.

The response from the GM touched on this, although it was missed due to the focus on the first part of that sentence. The reasons for dismissal are not all encompassing, which means that there may be valid reasons for dismissal outside of those four examples. Good examples of this that have been provided in this thread are the refusal to fulfill one's job function. Because of this, it is possible that the reasons provided for dismissal may be found to be accurate if they are used against you. As well, the feelings one may have about the reasons may differ from the feelings of those who voted to dismiss. For example, cultural differences in language may have one person using language they find fairly benign while another person takes great offense to it.

Because of these subjective discrepancies, the final decision on if a violation of the use of the vote dismiss feature is left to a GM after an investigation. In general, abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered to be a grief tactics violation, which falls under section 3.2 in the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement. However, it is only after a GM investigation that it can be determined to be a violation of the rules. If you feel that the vote dismiss feature has been abused, please do report it to the GMs through the Help Desk in game, and we will investigate.

LGM Enkrateia

This, couple with SE's policy on getting involved in playstyle difference kicks, goes to show that you are incorrect.

"Although we understand the impact that is caused after being removed from a duty finder group, please be aware that Game Masters will be unable to take action if a group member has been removed due to a player dispute, or if their game style differs (i.e. skipping in-game cutscenes, disagreement on using specific boss encounter tactics etc).
To avoid such incidents in the future, we would advise to speak with either the group leader or fellow party members when joining a new group to discuss any specific party restrictions that need to be addressed (i.e. any loot priorities, allowing group members to watch cutscenes etc)."

[KaiKatzchen]

This has all been addressed already, but since you didn't bother to read through the thread before commenting, allow me to post this again:

This, couple with SE's policy on getting involved in playstyle difference kicks, goes to show that you are incorrect.

No, my point is still valid and I did read. As the first quote states:

The reasons for dismissal are not all encompassing, which means that there may be valid reasons for dismissal outside of those four examples. Good examples of this that have been provided in this thread are the refusal to fulfill one's job function.

If a new player goes into a dungeon and states that they would like to watch the cut scenes, seeing it is their first time though, this is not a 'refusal to full one's job function'. It is simply them asking to watch said cut scene and still performing said job. Also it states:

Because of these subjective discrepancies, the final decision on if a violation of the use of the vote dismiss feature is left to a GM after an investigation. In general, abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered to be a grief tactics violation, which falls under section 3.2 in the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement.

Which 3.2 states:

3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers.

Which can go both ways, so by your logic if new players wish to 'vote kick' a player who did not wish for them to watch the cut scene, this would be allowed and not considered harassment, but simply 'play style differences'.

In your next quote it states:

Game Masters will be unable to take action if a group member has been removed due to a player dispute, or if their game style differs (i.e. skipping in-game cutscenes, disagreement on using specific boss encounter tactics etc).

Which is fine, a dispute is a dispute, and does interfere with player progression. But then it also states:

To avoid such incidents in the future, we would advise to speak with either the group leader or fellow party members when joining a new group to discuss any specific party restrictions that need to be addressed (i.e. any loot priorities, allowing group members to watch cutscenes etc)."

Meaning that the fellow party member should discuss the party restrictions. If nothing is discussed before the start of the dungeon, then there are no restrictions placed upon any of the other players. If it was not specifically said 'this is a no cut scene watching run', and then later they are kicked because of it, that is harassment.

They were never told they couldn't watch, and skipping was never made a requirement at the start. At this point, players are changing the rules as they go, and therefore it is grieving and player harassment. Even the GM says he advises that players discuss specifics at the start when joining a new group.

It's called a loophole, so if players who wanna do speed runs just rush in and don't discuss anything before starting then they are basically saying it is okay for the other players in the group to do as they wish, because no basis for the run was required or set.

So yes, I did read. The GM is saying make rules at the start to address any disputes in the run. If no basis or rules were set at the start, then there is no basis for the 'player dispute' and therefore, any kicking is player harassment. Which then goes back to 3.2 which states that you are disrupting and interfering with a players game experience, and are now still against ToS.

In short, the Gm is saying, be smart and set rules, that way people can't report you for harassment and you can protect yourself. because if your group does not set rules at the start of the run, then no rules can be broken by any members of your duty finder group.

[VesperValveto]

No, my point is still valid...

But it's not, because you COMPLETELY ignored the other part, where it's specifically stated:

"Although we understand the impact that is caused after being removed from a duty finder group, please be aware that Game Masters will be unable to take action if a group member has been removed due to a player dispute, or if their game style differs (i.e. skipping in-game cutscenes, disagreement on using specific boss encounter tactics etc).
To avoid such incidents in the future, we would advise to speak with either the group leader or fellow party members when joining a new group to discuss any specific party restrictions that need to be addressed (i.e. any loot priorities, allowing group members to watch cutscenes etc)."

Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it a loop hole.

[KaiKatzchen]

But it's not, because you COMPLETELY ignored the other part, where it's specifically stated:

Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it any less true.

Dear, how could I completely ignore that part when I quotes 95% of that whole quote and also discussed both half's of it. Alos the fact that 80% of my post has to do with the last quote that you have re-posted? The only part I didn't quote of that was:

"Although we understand the impact that is caused after being removed from a duty finder group,

Which makes me wonder if you actually read what I had to say, or simply wished to disagree with me so skipped it all. So here, to be respectful, I will use the whole quote and post properly.

"Although we understand the impact that is caused after being removed from a duty finder group, please be aware that Game Masters will be unable to take action if a group member has been removed due to a player dispute, or if their game style differs (i.e. skipping in-game cutscenes, disagreement on using specific boss encounter tactics etc).

Player disputes are made when rules are broken. If at the start a player said we are doing a speed run, and everyone agrees to it, but then later on a player watches the CS and holds them up, then there is a player dispute. A rule and basis of the run has been ignored. Therefore yes, a disagreement has been reached and it is now a player dispute.

But as the next part says:

To avoid such incidents in the future, we would advise to speak with either the group leader or fellow party members when joining a new group to discuss any specific party restrictions that need to be addressed (i.e. any loot priorities, allowing group members to watch cutscenes etc)."

The GM is advising, and he says 'advising' which means:

ad·vise (d-vz)
v. ad·vised, ad·vis·ing, ad·vis·es
v.tr.
1. To offer advice to; counsel.
2. To recommend; suggest: advised patience.
3. Usage Problem To inform; notify.
v.intr.
1. To take counsel; consult: She advised with her associates.
2. To offer advice.

So he is advising... in his own words 'to avoid such incidents in the future, we would advise to speak with either the group leader or fellow party members when joining a new group to discuss any specific party restrictions that need to be addressed. and then he specifically says 'allowing members to watch cutscenes'

So in short, they are basically pounding players over the head with the fact that they need to discuss if CS watching is or is not allowed in runs. If this is not stated, then players can do as they like and any kicking will be harassment because they were not told it was a 'restriction'. And no mater how many times you say it doesn't say that, you can't change the words in the quote: advised to speak about party restrictions... and as you have bold'ed. 'allowing party members to watch cut scenes'.

If there is no discussion on what is right and wrong in a dungeon, there is no basis for 'player dispute' and kicking falls to harassment. Now it is all quoted, even the 5% I forgot the first time.

[HiranaiVashai]

Even if I side with allowing people to watch cutscenes during runs, as long as it's an actual instantiated cutscene, it can be found back:

Location of Praetorium 'in run' Cutscenes, #8 being the interactive dialog.


Very recently taken screenshot of interactive dialog, me wearing a glamoured/dyed Birdsong Coat (rank 40 PvP) and upgraded relic (at least Atma, but factually Novus at this point), and glamoured High Allagan earrings of Aiming (Second Coil of Bahamuth drop, which is accessible after the main story).

[VesperValveto]

snip

It's not harassment, and no matter how many times you say it is, it simply is not. If anything, it seems like you're the one who is trying to find a loop hole in the policy.

Simply put; if someone tells you to skip the CS, then skip the CS. If you don't and you get kicked, then it's perfectly within the right of the grp to do so, seeing how the majority voted to remove you from the grp because of differing play styles. Lying to people by telling them otherwise is doing nothing more than hurting them in the long run, because they will be confused when a GM tells them "Sorry, but the grp was in the right to remove you."

[KaiKatzchen]

It's not harassment, and no matter how many times you say it is, it simply is not. If anything, it seems like you're the one who is trying to find a loop hole in the policy.

Simply put; if someone tells you to skip the CS, then skip the CS. If you don't and you get kicked, then it's perfectly within the right of the grp to do so, seeing how the majority voted to remove you from the grp because of differing play styles. Lying to people by telling them otherwise is doing more than hurting them in the long run, because they will be confused when a GM tells them "Sorry, but the grp was in the right to remove you."

I am simply going by what the GM is saying. Was the person asked to skip the cut scenes when joining the group and it was discussed as a restriction and addressed before the run started? Then yes, you are 100% correct. That was the advice given by the GM, and the party did a great job at following his advice. I'm not arguing with that, it is what the quote states and is the proper way to do things.

Was the person told to skip a cut scene half way though when they hit it and was unaware that they were not allowed to watch them? That is a shame, didn't the group discuss it like the GM advises in the quote? If not it was never listed as a party restriction at the start of the dungeon as the GM advises. So honestly, if they weren't told at the start they had to skip and that it was a restriction for the party, then are they honestly breaking any rules? If they are not told they cannot do something, then they had no idea the rule was in place and so couldn't break it.

What if the new person says 'hey I would really like to watch the cut scene in here' and no one objects, then the run starts and the first cut scene comes and the healer tells them to skip it. Have they broken any rules? They stated at the start they wished to watch, and no one told them no. So if they are kicked now because they wish to watch it, are they in the wrong or is the party in the wrong? I would say the party, so that would fall to grieving a player.

As you can see, there is no 'one true circumstance', but many and not all of them are wrong, or right but situational. It depends on what happens. Which is why the GM advises that people set down the rules before stating the dungeon run. I mean, honestly... I'm quoting him word for word...

To avoid such incidents in the future, we would advise to speak with either the group leader or fellow party members when joining a new group to discuss any specific party restrictions that need to be addressed (i.e. any loot priorities, allowing group members to watch cutscenes etc)."

As far as I can read he is suggesting to speak about the rules of the run before going in so everyone's on the same page and there are no player disputes. If not, you get the above, which is a lot of different views, but if nothing was discussed were their rules to break? Not really.

[Nyxia-Salix]

If you want a group to skip cutscene, then make a party finder for it. That is what it is made for. Too many people were getting harassed in runs because they wanted to watch cutscenes and were getting kicked. Don't want to help new people? Fine, then don't run with them and put up a party finder. Don't expect everyone in Duty Finder to have done the dungeon a thousand plus times and let them watch cutscenes if they want to. What is so hard about being nice and patient when we were all new at one point?