What do you guys think about Dark Knight?

[Rampage]

I would main DRK no question. I mained DRK in FFXI for years, I would want Souleater to work differently though. In FFXI if you were doing it right SE would bring your HP down really quickly and make you kind of a selfish DPS as you soaked up so much MP from the healers vs. died, only later with abyssea and super zerging where you would get tons of potions this became a non-issue. I would rather have a darkness attatck that takes x% hp from me and add x% dmg. That way we can buff up for that ability / skill.
I can see DRK as a melee DPS with long range abilities/ magic. SO maybe have some combos or DoTs up close that would set you up for a proc of an instant cast spell which you can do when you need to run out of AoE. Or some mechanic that had you running in and out of physical damage range to keep buffs up. For example cast attack spells on mobs that give buffs to physical dps at start of fight, and then have physical dps grant extra casts for magic or have some magic buff. This would have you potentially running some rotations at a distance (or rebuff up close if u have proc for instant casts) and some rotations up close, which would make it different from any DPS classes currently in the game and would make you actually use DRK magic attacks, not just have DRK be a melee dps with some magic as a novelty. + would be that you can still do part of your rotation while running away from AoE or at a distance, balanced out by having an interruptable rotation up close if you are trying to rebuff physical dps by casting next to the mob.

[Zej]

Sorry to disagree. I'm okay with Cecil being a dark knight, but FFT (psx version at least) doesn't have a static dark knight class. There is a enemy knight entitled Dark Knight, but not a plain job.

Red mage is present in old ffs.
Blue magic (not exactly the blue mage) is present in almost every ff (quina ffix, ffxii, that blonde woman into ffxiii, etc.). << this one is the more iconic.
Samurai is present in fft and ffv.
Mystic knight... ffv for sure and... Stainer (ffix) could be a MK, but ok, I give up on this one. lol.

The PSP version has the Dark Knight class and it works like you think it would and would be fairly easy to transfer (with tweaks) into this game. The PSX version had several rumors on how to make Ramza a Dark Knight as well, but ultimately were just rumors.

-Red Mages are present in Most FFs, save for 4, 6, and beyond. By the time these games came around, the class system either wasn't in use, wasn't as strict, or people could learn both white and black magics freely. This could be feasible and is incredibly Iconic because it was one of the 6 base classes from FF1, and has been in the game as a class in almost every job class oriented FFs. FF1, 2, 3, 5, 11, TA, and A2.
-Blue Magic concepts are present in most FFs since 5, but either the execution was different, or the class or skillset wasn't great outside a few top tier abilities. Blue Mages have already been commented as not being viable to create or balance appropriately in the current game system design by a recent Live Letter. Has appeared in FF 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 10-2, 11, TA and A2.
-Samurai has been in many FF games, but what it is exactly has always been re-iterated and never been totally concrete. Samurais have been in FF5, 6, 10, 10/2, 11, FFT, and A2.
-Steiner in FF9 was most definitely a Knight. Not a Mystic Knight or Spellsword, but could be argued that he was also a Paladin with some of the End Game Holy Swordsmanship skills from Excalibur 2.

Dark Knight has been in FF 2, 3, 4, 10-2, 11, and Tactics (PSP). That's only one game less than some of the other classes, but most were not as iconic due to the nature of how Dark Knight and Paladin were introduced and intertwined as in FF4's Plot.

In the end of the day everything needs to be fun. I think Dark Knights could fill a niche that DPS aren't currently involved in. I think Samurai could fill a tanking Niche. I think that if they can get Red Mage functioning in an MMO like a Jack should then it would work too. Blue Mages are possible for sure, but I doubt that SE is looking for ways to get it into the game *currently* as they could be with the prior three.

[Zej]

@ Rampage: I see Dark Knights with health draining skills and health siphoning skills. They use their own lifeforce as a resource. That would be the part of the Dynamic Gameplay that would make them thematically different from other dps classes. I would also say that I wouldn't do either positioning or DoTs with Dark Knights but tons of raw damage. The high risk-High Reward gameplay would be to know when to go full throttle and burn mobs and your health and when to peel back and regen/stay health neutral. Basic Rotation should keep you health Neutral though.

[Rampage]

@Zej: How would that work? Maybe a Souleater stance and drain stance kind of thing? Where one stance full HP - and another stance hp neutral or drains? I think that just using massive HP loss as a mechanic is not great. There is so much hard hitting A0E and unblockable AoE damage in this game that basically any time you take a big hit you would have to cripple your dps or totally stop and drain back. I could get behind a stance mechanic for that, but if you have to stop and cast to get hp back i think it might take you out of the action for too long. Sure you could hold back oh HP- stuff but other DPS wont have to hold back and so DRK would be at a disadvantage.

Part of why DRK is interesting is also because it is a hybrid melee / caster class. How would you reconcile this?

[Rampage]

Also, while the super high risk gameplay using Hp as a resource to increase DMG is tons of fun for the DRK, it can quickly become "Oh no not a DRK" for the rest of the party, especially healers (this is how it was in FFXI for a long time). This is why I think if they go the HP - route there needs to be a way that the DRK can take care of itself.

[Zej]

Also, while the super high risk gameplay using Hp as a resource to increase DMG is tons of fun for the DRK, it can quickly become "Oh no not a DRK" for the rest of the party, especially healers (this is how it was in FFXI for a long time). This is why I think if they go the HP - route there needs to be a way that the DRK can take care of itself.

I appears like a hybrid dps caster. In most iterations of the Dark Knight it has some casting like abilities that rely on their vitality, but still do damaged based on their physical attributes. That's still doable with the system we have now, you can scale any ability off of attack power. It's never been a true hybrid/melee caster like Red, Blue, or Green mages.

My idea is that they don't consume TP or MP for skills, everything the use is HP based. However their entire standard DPS rotation leaves them HP neutral. They have cooldowns and Off-GCD skills that also allow them to go all out and also regen their health in a pinch. That allows them the freedom to DPS hard and stay alive if they avoid things that are avoidable. The idea that Dark Knights bring is High-Risk, High-Reward Raw damage with no positional or DoT damage. There's nothing strategic about their ability to kill things, as long as they have the lifeforce left to stand.

My example abilities: Numbers are to get the point across. Based off health equal to 5000.
-Sanguine Sabre: Weaponskill with a potency of 250. Returns 65% of the damage dealt as Health. No cost, 18s cooldown.
-Night Blade: Weaponskill with a potency of 150. Consumes 0.5% of maximum health.
-Dark Strike: Weaponskill with a potency of 220. Consumes 1.0% of maximum health. Combo Action: Night Blade. Combo Effect: Reduces cooldown of Sanguine Sabre by 1s.
-Abyssal Slash: Weaponskill with a potency of 350. Consumes 1.5% of maximum health.
-Umbra Swing: Weaponskill with a potency of 180. Consumes 0.5% of maximum health. Combo Action: Night Blade. Combo Effect: Returns 10% of damage done as health for the next 9 seconds.
-Rending Shadow: Weaponskill with a potency of 280. Consumes 1.5% of maximum health. Combo Action: Umbra Swing. Combo Effect: Increases damage taken by all Dark Knight skills by 10%.
-Darkness: PBoAE around the Dark Knight with a potency of 165. Consumes 3% of maximum health. Passive Trait grants a Combo Action of out Abyssal Slash. Combo Effect: Increased Potency to 385.
-Dark Intent: Increases critical strike chance for 20s. Whenever you critically strike you increase your Determination for 12 seconds, stacks up to 5 times. 120s cooldown.
-Consume: Consume all TP. Restoring 5% health for each 100 TP expended in this manner.
-Soul Eater: Consume 10% of your current health with each weaponskill to increase it's damage by a portion of the health drained. Toggle ability off the GCD.

If you really wanted some skills like Dark and Drain, Most Dark Knight in Final Fantasy don't have those skills. FF10-2 and 11 did, and in FFT they had Sanguine Sabre to regen health equal to the damage done and is functionally Drain. Every weaponskill could come with Dark-esque animations and particle effects so that you sill have that feel.

Again these are all examples only, I'm not proposing a class or anything.

[Deusteele]

Souleater/Darkside could be the end of the jobs first 1-2-3 combo with a high combo potency and health cost instead or in addition to TP, but very low normal potency to prevent spamming. The second 1-2-3 combo could be a weak health drain or a weak +healing taken buff. Together this makes the DRK able using it's higher damage rotation during times when healing isn't scarce or during a burn phase, while still letting them use it during more dangerous situations without the traditional problem of a Damage-to-Health class being a liability in group content.

[SwordCoheir]

Here's an idea, for a semi-high risk high reward type DRK.

Devourer - Stance - Effect Duration 30 seconds - Each time you finish a combo you gain a devour stack (up to 5). For each stack your damage will increase by 7% and your defense will decrease by 10% and your HP will gradually deplete by 1% per tick. If stacks are not purged with Gorge before the buff expires you will receive a 10 second pacification effect.

Gorge - Attack - TP 50 - Potency 200 - Recover 100% of damage done for each stack, consumes Devourer stacks. (Sort of a bounce back in emergencies method).

[Exstal]

Here's an idea, for a semi-high risk high reward type DRK.

Devourer - Stance - Effect Duration 30 seconds - Each time you finish a combo you gain a devour stack (up to 5). For each stack your damage will increase by 7% and your defense will decrease by 10% and your HP will gradually deplete by 1% per tick. If stacks are not purged with George before the buff expires you will receive a 10 second pacification effect.

George - Attack - TP 50 - Potency 200 - Recover 100% of damage done for each stack, consumes Devourer stacks. (Sort of a bounce back in emergencies method).

I think you mean Gorge...as George is the name of a male.

[dragonfire8974]

Since I like the idea of Gld based Drk, I would have the class be about enmity generation/degeneration with Dots being the mainstay, Darkness being a way to restore full TP at the cost of 1/4 life (or something similar to Blm Convert) and the capstone ability cost 200-300 tp to deal high burst damage4
Since I like the idea of Gld based Drk, I would have the class be about enmity generation/degeneration with Dots being the mainstay, Darkness being a way to restore full TP at the cost of 1/4 life (or something similar to Blm Convert) and the capstone ability cost 200-300 tp to deal high burst damage

Example:
Job ability - Spite lvl 30 - deals damage based on Enmity built up, 1/2s enmity OGCD. Cooldown between 30 seconds and 1min
lvls 35, 40 - Dots - i'm not familiar enough with the Dot mechanics to really balance this
lvl 45 - Darkness - sacrifices 25% hp to restore full TP
lvl 50 - Hatred (or something sufficiently dark themed) - cost 240tp - capstone to RoH combo, combo potency 600 (no extra enmity generation)

Now I'm not too attached to it being based from Gld, though the defensive CDs could be nice for if pulling hate, or after using the TP restoration to make sure dmg taken is reduced

But If it is from a new class, I would like it to be about 3rd in sustained melee DPS, 1st in burst Melee dps, and its main dps is based on setting up Dots. I think the idea of managing enmity generation and degeneration to deal extra damage might be an interesting way to bring a new spin to a DPS class and would enable to be based off of Gld (cause i'm a fan of the Cecil Drk)