Honest question: If every player/class/job is equal,who is unique? (Gameplay topic)

[Dwill]

So they were both equally hard?


A quote from a BTL member btw: "None of us doubt that PW can be killed. We just call into question exactly what the development team thinks is reasonable from human beings,"

http://www.wired.com/2008/08/pandemonium-war/

So, it was killable, mathematically, but was too hard for players as human beings. Find a harder boss than that.

Your arguing semantics here. It wasn't a matter of hard, it was mathematically impossible to kill within reasonable means.

I was in BTL as well so I knew about that whole incident, sorry to disappoint you. BTL thought it was possible to kill but we wouldn't have been surprised if they pulled another Absolute Virtue on this boss which was highly possible as well. Why do you think his mechanic was changed after that controversy ? That thing is what caused most of BTL's core group to just give up on the game.

Sorry but you should try another boss to answer Alkimi's question, one that is within reasonable means to kill and not a flat exaggeration.

[Aegis]

Your arguing semantics here. It wasn't a matter of hard, it was mathematically impossible to kill within reasonable means.

I was in BTL as well so I knew about that whole incident, sorry to disappoint you. BTL thought it was possible to kill but we wouldn't have been surprised if they pulled another Absolute Virtue on this boss which was highly possible as well. Why do you think his mechanic was changed after that controversy ? That thing is what caused most of BTL's core group to just give up on the game.

Sorry but you should try another boss to answer Alkimi's question, one that is within reasonable means to kill and not a flat exaggeration.

But one of those core group members said that the group thought it was killable. Why would you disagree with them?

[Dwill]

But one of those core group members said that the group thought it was killable. Why would you disagree with them?

BTL thought it was possible to kill but we wouldn't have been surprised if they pulled another Absolute Virtue on this boss which was highly possible as well. Why do you think his mechanic was changed after that controversy ? That thing is what caused most of BTL's core group to just give up on the game.

Look at the bolded part.That's not disagreeing with them.

I'm not going to sit arguing over semantics with you. Pandemonium Warden was a terrible answer to Alkimi's question and you know it. Now unless you have another answer, it just proves him/her right.

[Aegis]

Look at the bolded part.That's not disagreeing with them.

I'm not going to sit arguing over semantics with you. Pandemonium Warden was a terrible answer to Alkimi's question and you know it. Now unless you have another answer, it just proves him/her right.

I don't get your objection to it. It was a very hard boss. And semantics is the meaning of words. Which word are we arguing over?

[Dwill]

I don't get your objection to it. It was a very hard boss. And semantics is the meaning of words. Which word are we arguing over?

It's not hard to get:

It wasn't a matter of hard, it was mathematically impossible to kill within reasonable means.

[Aegis]

It's not hard to get:

It was mathematically possible to kill.

'Reasonable means' could be stretched to mean anything, it's a wishy-washy, subjective phrase.

Perhaps someone would consider having to react in under .1s unreasonable. Does that mean Titan HM is mathematically impossible to kill within reasonable means?

No subjective terms, just hard fact. PW was possible to kill pre-nerf. It wasn't killed. There's no harder boss in WoW or anywhere really. I don't care if you don't want to accept it, it was possible to kill and harder than any WoW boss. Your objection is spurious and subjective.

Unless you have another argument, I suggest we agree to disagree.

[Dwill]

It was mathematically possible to kill.

'Reasonable means' could be stretched to mean anything, it's a wishy-washy, subjective phrase.

Perhaps someone would consider having to react in under .1s unreasonable. Does that mean Titan HM is mathematically impossible to kill within reasonable means?

No subjective terms, just hard fact. PW was possible to kill pre-nerf. It wasn't killed. There's no harder boss in WoW or anywhere really. I don't care if you don't want to accept it, it was possible to kill and harder than any WoW boss. Your objection is spurious and subjective.

Unless you have another argument, I suggest we agree to disagree.

I guess we'll agree to disagree since you seem to think that sitting 18 hours in front of a computer is reasonable.

[Duelle]

No subjective terms, just hard fact. PW was possible to kill pre-nerf. It wasn't killed. There's no harder boss in WoW or anywhere really. I don't care if you don't want to accept it, it was possible to kill and harder than any WoW boss. Your objection is spurious and subjective.

Not really. I remember having conversations with the senior members of my guild in WoW, most of whom raided during vanilla. Their claim was that vanilla C'thun was mathematically impossible to kill before the nerf/hotfix. As in "considering the resources, class designs, gear and combat conditions, it was impossible for a raid to have the DPS required to kill C'thun". The main issue was that the tentacles spawned inside the stomach and since clearing the tentacles was considered part of the encounter and requirement to kill the boss, you had issues. Here's a quote from WoWhead that sums it up nicely.

C'Thun was literally impossible for any guild to kill when he was first implemented. Phase 1 was doable, but phase 2 was just downright brutal.
Giant Claws had >90k hp, Giant Eyes had >40k hp, the Little Eyes had roughly 2.3k hp. Every 30 seconds, 8 Little Eyes would spawn around C'Thun, and mindflay the raid (if left alive long enough they would kill the healers). On another timer, every 40 seconds, C'thun would spawn a Giant Claw and Giant Eye. The Giant Claws would do about 1.5k-2k (which was a lot pre-BC) on t2 geared tanks and could use Thrash and kill a bunch of DPS or Healers at once. The Giant Eyes had a Green Beam effect that could chain to multiple targets and could kill your entire raid essentially.
When entering Phase 2, C'Thun has 100% HP and now has a protective shield that basically nullifies any incoming attacks to do basically no damage. To damage/kill C'Thun, he would "eat" people every 10 seconds and place them in him stomach. In his stomach are two Flash Tentacles which have 24k hp. Your raid needs to kill both Flash Tentacles to weaken C'Thun. After the nerf (not sure of how many before) it would take 2-3 weakenings to kill C'Thun.

Given the information above, it required guilds in T2/AQ40 gear (Naxx wasn't out yet, even though the gear wouldn't have been significant enough to kill him still) to put out a whopping 230k damage to keep up with the various spawns. Now, this was possible for guilds back then, but only on single targets. When you have 8, 12, 17, 22, or more adds alive (the spawns had no cap limit, you could technically have a full room of tentacles) its very hard to push out 230k damage for your always having to switch.

Patch 1.10.1 (hotfix)
We have also hotfixed the following changes to the C’thun encounter in Ahn’Qiraj:

#Lowered the hit points of both Giant Claw Tentacles and Giant Eye Tentacles.
#Decreased the damage caused by Ground Rupture, and made the effect resistable.
#Significantly decreased the melee damage done by Giant Eye Tentacles.

In the 1.10.1 patch, we also changed the way that C’thun identifies who is in his stomach. The faction changing debuff that was previously applied will no longer appear, but C’thun’s tentacles should not spawn in the stomach, nor should a player in the stomach be the target of C’thun’s Eye Beam.

The combination of these changes should give players more time to damage C'thun instead of dealing with tentacles, and see fewer "unavoidable, random" deaths occur due to Ground Rupture effects.

Patch 1.10.0
Temple of Ahn'Qiraj
# Removed the stacking acid from the Flesh Tentacles in the C'thun encounter.
# Digestive Acid now increases its effect over time during the C'thun encounter.
# Fixed a bug that could allow for the Digestive Acid debuff to be removed.
# Lowered the amount of knockback dealt by Giant Tentacles.
# Tentacles should no longer spawn on players who have just been knocked back by a previous tentacle.

[Brine_Gildchaff]

I don't get your objection to it. It was a very hard boss. And semantics is the meaning of words. Which word are we arguing over?

The word "hard", which contrary to your frankly bizarre claims does not encompass "taking so long to kill that attackers were literally passing out at their computers". If literally the only thing that constrained them from defeating it was "it's taking so much time that people are collapsing", that is not "hard", that is "padded". It's the reason the term "artificial difficulty" was invented.