Chocobo dyeing R&D Thread - Post your results here!

[AttacKat]

Try it out for yourself on the calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ano/edit#gid=0

Please STOP ...

Notes
Created by Rythea Elynn of Sargatanas
- All research work was done by people from the forums, I just threw this together since I didn't have time to experiment slowly because of the free week
- Anyone is free to take this and edit it, or make it mroe accurate. Anything that helps people get their chocobos coloured more accurately!

Review your math, the fruits don't cancel all values out, they cancel two in most cases, so when combined, all three values go either up or down.

This calculator IS NOT complete, nor is any data complete and/or finished. It is stated VERY CLEARLY in the notes. Please step misleading people and tell people exactly what fruit to use to obtain the another color when NO ONE has posted a solid result that can be reproduced 100% of the time.

You tell me, just exactly how you can even suggest the fruits ALWAYS behaves the same when you have the follow values??

Xelphatol Red Green Blue Red Δ Green Δ Blue Δ
Desert Yellow (D) 223 183 87 0 0 0
Millioncorn Yellow 231 159 55 -8 24 32
Pumpkin Orange 199 119 39 32 40 16
Sunset Orange 183 95 55 16 24 -16
Blood Red 143 63 39 40 32 16

O'Ghomoro (sum)
1 Desert Yellow (D) 223 183 87 0 0 0
2 Cork Brown 2x) 207 151 87 16 32 0
3 Ul Brown (3x) 183 167 119 24 -16 -32
4 Aldgoat Brown (2x) 167 135 103 16 32 16
5 Gobbiebag Brown (2x) 191 167 135 -24 -32 -32
6 Shale Brown (3x) 151 135 111 40 32 24
7 Goobbue Grey (2x) 135 135 135 16 0 -24
8 Lavender Blue (2x) 143 135 175 -8 0 -40
9 Lilac Purple 135 111 111 8 24 64
10 Plum Purple 127 87 111 8 24 0
11 Gloom Purple 79 71 103 48 16 8
12 Raptor Blue 95 135 199 -16 -64 -96
13 Othard Blue (2x) 55 95 143 40 40 56

[Esutiben]

Please STOP ...




This calculator IS NOT complete, nor is any data complete and/or finished. It is stated VERY CLEARLY in the notes. Please step misleading people and tell people exactly what fruit to use to obtain the another color when NO ONE has posted a solid result that can be reproduced 100% of the time.

I was able to help hundreds thank to this. Taken many days and hours out of my free time to do it. This upsets you somehow. We know it's not an exact science, it's what we got. Best I can do, and it's nice of you to come high and mighty after 370 posts you didn't read. Be happy, help everyone yourself. I'm done now that the last people I was helping got their soot black.

Everyone, AttacKat will help you all. Enjoy.

BTW, learn to math.

[AttacKat]

I was able to help hundreds thank to this. Taken many days and hours out of my free time to do it. This upsets you somehow. We know it's not an exact science, it's what we got. Best I can do, and it's nice of you to come high and mighty after 370 posts you didn't read. Be happy, help everyone yourself. I'm done now that the last people I was helping got their soot black.

Everyone, AttacKat will help you all. Enjoy.

BTW, learn to math.

You helped hundreds, and how many that followed your advise and did not get the result? Did you count that?

Sorry, not trying to take any credit from your work, but you do need to tell people your exact feed suggestions is based on RNG.

Am I going to help everyone? No, but heck, myself and many others have spend the past 10+ days and hundreds of fruits/feeds/hrs doing controlled experiments just trying to come up with the results you guys are using to based your RNG calculations off. Am I wrong to tell you please stop using inaccurate information? Are you right to keep telling people exactly what to feed when it is RNG based on current findings?

I am not isn't going to tell people exactly what to feed, but I have been spending tons of fruit/time on trying to figure out the logic how SE is doing their RNG.

BTW, my math, is what you are using to come up with your suggestions. If I cannot do my math correctly, then there is no way your answer can have any meaning behind them.

As I have said either here or elsewhere, the ONLY conclusive color pathing tool we have ATM is the PNG file, and even that isn't 100% all the time.

[Syrehn]

You helped hundreds, and how many that followed your advise and did not get the result? Did you count that?

Sorry, not trying to take any credit from your work, but you do need to tell people your exact feed suggestions is based on RNG.

Am I going to help everyone? No, but heck, myself and many others have spend the past 10+ days and hundreds of fruits/feeds/hrs doing controlled experiments just trying to come up with the results you guys are using to based your RNG calculations off. Am I wrong to tell you please stop using inaccurate information? Are you right to keep telling people exactly what to feed when it is RNG based on current findings?

I am not isn't going to tell people exactly what to feed, but I have been spending tons of fruit/time on trying to figure out the logic how SE is doing their RNG.

BTW, my math, is what you are using to come up with your suggestions. If I cannot do my math correctly, then there is no way your answer can have any meaning behind them.

As I have said either here or elsewhere, the ONLY conclusive color pathing tool we have ATM is the PNG file, and even that isn't 100% all the time.

He's not the only person that was assisting people using a +5/-5 value or providing a sample of fruit numbers to try using; myself and a few others were as well much earlier in the thread. In the posts where we listed fruit values we always put that it "should get you into a colour range" and that "it wasn't an exact science", etc. I don't think you understand how many C+P posts there are using that format to try to help others. Telling someone to "Try" a combo of fruits is a far cry from saying "Hey, do this and it will give you your exact colour guaranteed".

If you want to come down on the individuals who have spent countless hours attempting to get others towards their desired colour that's up to you. If you don't like the tools that are being offered as an attempt to help people move towards their desired colour that's up to you. As mentioned the players that were helping were doing the best they could with the tools available. You do not need to come into the thread whistle blowing and telling everyone who has dedicated time to help others that they are wrong and spreading misinfo because we suggested a number of fruits to try (look at the countless people that were helped), but again, that's up to you. Just be prepared to be the one left trying to help all the players going forward and if you choose not to at least they'll all know why the rest of us aren't.

Cheers!

[AttacKat]

As mentioned the players that were helping were doing the best they could with the tools available. You do not need to come into the thread whistle blowing and telling everyone who has dedicated time to help others that they are wrong and spreading misinfo because we suggested a number of fruits to try (look at the countless people that were helped), but again, that's up to you. Just be prepared to be the one left trying to help all the players going forward and if you choose not to at least they'll all know why the rest of us aren't.

Cheers!

And helping others is what we are ALL trying to do. But this isn't new. We have known feeding a given number of fruits will not produce the same result everytime back in post 500-ish. So, I question you guys that make those kind of recommendations ... Why con't down the wrong path?? 2000+ posts later?

Won't we ALL benefit much more, if we can all control ourselves a little, especially those of us that are here making recommendations, to others to do things in steps. This way the results can be logged and tracked, instead of just making blanket statements where no one will have any clue of what happened, and at the end, does not even help to further those of us that are trying to determine the behavior what each fruit will do?

Yes, it may sound like I am blowing whistles, but let me ask you this ... How will feeding 2 berries and 1 apple together effect the RGB value? Can any of you tell me?? All I can say is I know I do not know, but at least I AM doing controlled feeds so I can track the changes and hope I may be able to see some behavior patterns then just throwing knifes blind folded.

So, how about it? Instead of making blank feeds suggestions based on a RNG calculator telling people to use X of this Y of that Z of those in HUGE amounts, how about let's control the process and get people to the next color, then move on from there?

We need to stop this "how do I get from Blood red to soot black" and you guys come back with "feed 30 of blue, 50 of green, and 10 of yellow" business. Seriously, if we can control this, it will help us ALL, especially us data gatherers who can also use your help too in getting more data, and maybe help us to come out with a better tool sooner to replace this RNG game.

[Giantbane]

You tell me, just exactly how you can even suggest the fruits ALWAYS behaves the same when you have the follow values??

Xelphatol Red Green Blue Red Δ Green Δ Blue Δ
Desert Yellow (D) 223 183 87 0 0 0
Millioncorn Yellow 231 159 55 -8 24 32
Pumpkin Orange 199 119 39 32 40 16
Sunset Orange 183 95 55 16 24 -16
Blood Red 143 63 39 40 32 16

O'Ghomoro (sum)
1 Desert Yellow (D) 223 183 87 0 0 0
2 Cork Brown 2x) 207 151 87 16 32 0
3 Ul Brown (3x) 183 167 119 24 -16 -32
4 Aldgoat Brown (2x) 167 135 103 16 32 16
5 Gobbiebag Brown (2x) 191 167 135 -24 -32 -32
6 Shale Brown (3x) 151 135 111 40 32 24
7 Goobbue Grey (2x) 135 135 135 16 0 -24
8 Lavender Blue (2x) 143 135 175 -8 0 -40
9 Lilac Purple 135 111 111 8 24 64
10 Plum Purple 127 87 111 8 24 0
11 Gloom Purple 79 71 103 48 16 8
12 Raptor Blue 95 135 199 -16 -64 -96
13 Othard Blue (2x) 55 95 143 40 40 56

I assume you're talking about the fact that feeding only berries or apples causes wild fluctuations in the RGB result values?

This threw me for a loop at first . But after seeing people have some luck with the +5/-5 theory, I decided to try it out. And it worked very well. I took what I had already fed it (ignoring color), calculated what more it would take and was able to get from gloom purple to soot black in two feedings (one mass feed, 1 small corrective feed). While this isn't proof, obviously, it was accurate enough that I'm inclined to believe that there is indeed an exact internal RGB value stored for the chocobo and that the fruits do work very closely to what was suggested with +5/-5.

As to how that fits into the path that the color takes when you feed the chocobo only blue, my best guess is that this is due to how the system selects the color based on the internal RGB value. It makes sense, if you assume an exact internal RGB value, that there must be some algorithm that best *fits* the internal RGB to one of the available dyes. The result is that each dye doesn't represent a single color, but a range of colors. And some of those colors can vary wildly.

Take blue for instance. If you keep feeding the bird berries, it will end up at Royal Blue and will go no further (39,47,103). If we assume the RGB +5/-5 theory, then continued feeding will result in 0,0,255, even though the dye remains at Royal Blue. There's a massive difference in actual values between 39,47,103 and 0,0,255, but it's still outwardly displayed as the same color. So each color can be representative of some pretty big color ranges.

I believe what we're seeing when you feed the chocobo only berries (or any other single fruit) is that you are adjusting an exact internal RGB in a linear path. But the result of what we see is where that linear path intersects the various color regions created by the dye picker. For instance, your first step in the berries.

Desert yellow (223,183,87) +2 berries = Cork Brown (207, 151, 87).

I believe that the berries are adding +5 b, -5 r & g for a result of

Desert yellow (223,183,87) +2 berries (-10,-10,10) = (213, 173, 97).

And then the internal color picker takes that (213, 173, 97) and pick cork brown as the *best* fit.

This then continues through the various color changes you listed above.

As far as the RNG is concerned, I believe that the ratio of all colors is preserved in a change. So berries *may* be +4, -4 OR +5, -5 OR +6, -6 (not exact values, i'm just saying that the adjustment to R, G & B all match), but berries would not cause a change of -4, -6, +5. My reason for thinking this is that berries always follow the same color path. If the fruits were random in a non-linear manner, then we would see the path diverge from what's listed above. However, everyone I know that has tested this sees the same transition you listed above.

[Enma]

After 12 Color transformations I'm quite confident that there is no +5/-5 relations with food. I tried different way of feeding but I never got that supposed relation. What I can say from my personal experience is that the effect of each food is loyal to its description.

Xelphatol Apple:
A bitter fruit......is known to deepen the red hues of their feathers.

Working with RGB values doesn't help, but Logic does. So if you add RED to BLUE it will change in PURPLE, as experience should suggest. No matter how far the two colors are on the RGB scale.

Examples from my experience:

1. Starting Point: Royal Blue - R:34 G:42 B:96
   Food: x1 Ciedalaes Pineapple
   Finishing Point: Gloom Purple - R:74 G:42 B:89
   ΔR = +40 ; ΔG = 0 ; ΔB = -7
2. Starting Point: Royal Blue - R:34 G:42 B:96
   Food: x2 Xelphatol Apple
   Finishing Point: Regal Purple - R:95 G:42 B:71
   ΔR = +61 ; ΔG = 0 ; ΔB = -25

[Giantbane]

After 12 Color transformations I'm quite confident that there is no +5/-5 relations with food. I tried different way of feeding but I never got that supposed relation. What I can say from my personal experience is that the effect of each food is loyal to its description.

Xelphatol Apple:
A bitter fruit......is known to deepen the red hues of their feathers.

Working with RGB values doesn't help, but Logic does. So if you add RED to BLUE it will change in PURPLE, as experience should suggest. No matter how far the two colors are on the RGB scale.

Examples from my experience:

1. Starting Point: Royal Blue - R:34 G:42 B:96
   Food: x1 Ciedalaes Pineapple
   Finishing Point: Gloom Purple - R:74 G:42 B:89
   ΔR = +40 ; ΔG = 0 ; ΔB = -7
2. Starting Point: Royal Blue - R:34 G:42 B:96
   Food: x2 Xelphatol Apple
   Finishing Point: Regal Purple - R:95 G:42 B:71
   ΔR = +61 ; ΔG = 0 ; ΔB = -25

Working with RGB values can still work, you just have to have a better idea of what your RGB value is.

Assuming the system *does* work with RGB values, then Royal Blue does not necessarily mean that the actual color of your chocobo is 34,42,96. It means that this is the best fit given whatever your RGB value is. It also means that when you add a single pineapple, then your RGB value hasn't really changed to 74,42, 89, but you've crossed over into the range where the color picker now picks gloom purple for you.

Actually your example all but disproves your theory, that the fruits do "what they say". Pineapple says it lightens blue. If you start with a deep blue, lighten blue once then how do you account for the fact that the system stuck you with a dark purple (gloom purple)? That doesn't make any sense unless there's something else going on under the hood.

Also, if the system works with RGB, then Royal Blue is a bad starting point for testing what effects are. This is because even though you got to Royal Blue, you don't know what your exact RGB value is.

I'm not saying that the +5/-5 RGB is a proven as exactly what they're doing. But to me, this fits what people have been reporting pretty well (as well as my own limited experiences).

[AttacKat]

If you keep feeding the bird berries, it will end up at Royal Blue and will go no further (39,47,103). If we assume the RGB +5/-5 theory, then continued feeding will result in 0,0,255, even though the dye remains at Royal Blue. There's a massive difference in actual values between 39,47,103 and 0,0,255, but it's still outwardly displayed as the same color. So each color can be representative of some pretty big color ranges.

I believe what we're seeing when you feed the chocobo only berries (or any other single fruit) is that you are adjusting an exact internal RGB in a linear path. But the result of what we see is where that linear path intersects the various color regions created by the dye picker.

Lets focus on the main issue, the simulator/calculator. The guts of the problem is the calculator makes its calculations based on each fruit feed, not the kind of food feed. What you have written which I deleted supports the 2nd case, but not the first. As of now, we can all safely say when you feed deepen red, expect it to behave to make the bird more red, and when I feed deepen blue to that red bird, we surely can expect it to become purple.

What the calculator does is it leads people to believe that each unit of fruit feed has an expected value in the of the RGB scale. But the fact is we know we can feed only 1 apple and it may cause it to move from scale 1 to 2, and 20 apples to move from scale 4 to 5, while both 1-2 and 4-5 only differs by 16. So, what is the R value per unit of fruit in this case? 16, or 0.8? Now factor in the RNG bomb SE throws in, what is the exact behavior of each fruit fed? So, when we recommend someone to feed 5 apples, should we be expecting a +90R, or +3R? Then don't forget to add in the RNG (unknown).

I myself tried to duplicate the Royal Blue feeding from the old spreadsheet of 30 berries and 10 apples, and I only end up using 26 berries and 1 apple. Using my own case, should I consider each apple a +5R (10 recommended), or +50 (1 actual).

As said earlier, my best suggestion ATM, is keep making recommendations, but instead of using the calculator, use the PNG file of known color paths. In addition, instead of recommend tons of fruits to feed at once, lets feed one kind of fruit at a time, so we can start to obtain more actually color changes and their stages based on one kind of fruit. Once we reach within the desired color range, then make the necessary fine adjustments.

[Giantbane]

The guts of the problem is the calculator makes its calculations based on each fruit feed, not the kind of food feed.

I don't know what you mean by this

What you have written which I deleted supports the 2nd case, but not the first.

everything I wrote can apply to only feeding berries or only feeding apples, or feeding both. I only used berries as an example.

As of now, we can all safely say when you feed deepen red, expect it to behave to make the bird more red, and when I feed deepen blue to that red bird, we surely can expect it to become purple.

well, you'll forgive me, but that's not particularly helpful.

What the calculator does is it leads people to believe that each unit of fruit feed has an expected value in the of the RGB scale. But the fact is we know we can feed only 1 apple and it may cause it to move from scale 1 to 2, and 20 apples to move from scale 4 to 5, while both 1-2 and 4-5 only differs by 16. So, what is the R value per unit of fruit in this case? 16, or 0.8? Now factor in the RNG bomb SE throws in, what is the exact behavior of each fruit fed? So, when we recommend someone to feed 5 apples, should we be expecting a +90R, or +3R? Then don't forget to add in the RNG (unknown).

I myself tried to duplicate the Royal Blue feeding from the old spreadsheet of 30 berries and 10 apples, and I only end up using 26 berries and 1 apple. Using my own case, should I consider each apple a +5R (10 recommended), or +50 (1 actual).

The problem, if they do use an internal RGB color, is that RGB 0-255 represents over 16 million different color values and they're crammed into only 85 different dye colors. Each dye would represent, on average, ~200 thousand different color values. So the recipes, even if there weren't any RNG, could vary wildly as you'd only need to hit the range of color that represents a dye. Throw in an RNG component and it gets more complicated.

Because of this, it might be difficult to pin down an exact range for the RNG. However, whatever the range is, it's got to average out to something. +5/-5 doesn't seem like a bad place to start. It well for me, but maybe I got lucky. If people use this idea properly, we might be able to get a better idea whether this consistently overshoots or undershoots the targets. There will be outliers, but you should hopefully be able to ballpark it.

As said earlier, my best suggestion ATM, is keep making recommendations, but instead of using the calculator, use the PNG file of known color paths. In addition, instead of recommend tons of fruits to feed at once, lets feed one kind of fruit at a time, so we can start to obtain more actually color changes and their stages based on one kind of fruit. Once we reach within the desired color range, then make the necessary fine adjustments.

The problem I see with the PNG file is that it's extremely imprecise. It doesn't take into account the RGB values at all. It tries to deal with the colors as states with clear pathways. But the pathways can be anything but clear in some cases. It works well when you're on a single fruit color path or very close to it (for instance getting to blood red is easy, just feed apples). If you deviate from it greatly, such as the case for Soot Black, then it gets harder to make it work. When you get into the darker colors, if you strictly go by feeding one fruit at a time, you're very likely to end up in some weird loops with only guesswork to get out of it.when it's constructed of very precise color paths.

I think careful use of the calculator is probably going to give better results than strictly going off the PNG file because it deals with how the colors relate to each other. But there is a problem I've seen when people use the calculator. They rely too heavily on the calculator's color picker, but because there is some RNG involved and it's very unlikely that the hastily crafted calculator's color picker matches the actual game algorithm. It's not enough to simply get the color picker to guess at the right color. You need to try to target the colors as closely as possible. And more than just getting the values numerically close you also want to try to keep the difference from the target value as small as possible. For instance, R + 6, G+0, B+0 is not as good as R+2,G+2,B+2 because it preserves the ratio of the colors to each other better.

The idea is that every exact dye color represents the center of a color space represented by that color. And you want to adjust where you are to as close to your target's center as possible. Due to the RNG and unknown exact values you are not likely to hit your target space every time, especially if you're far off the center of your own color space. But as you keep heading toward that center, the RNG will average out and you're likely to get closer every time until you hit it.