Are you happy with the current raiding structure in this game?

[loreleidiangelo]

Let's talk raids in this thread: things you like about them, things you don't like, things you'd like to see changed. Whether it's group sizes, the lockouts, or just exactly how you feel about the abundance of one-shot mechanics, air your opinions here!

I'll start. For one, let me preface my opinions with a little bit of background. Midcore raider, T9 down (though only recently), been with the same static since 2.3 for the most part (lost a guy about midway through T9 progression to other games, but had a replacement for him right away). I raid as WHM.

That said, my biggest gripe with 14's current implemented raiding system is the weekly lockout. ("Oh no, not another lockout rant thread!" you might be exclaiming, and perhaps you're right.) My issue isn't necessarily that the lockout is in place, but rather, the ridiculous amount of timing attached to it. Yes, I understand that SE has gated the content so severely in order to preserve sub numbers and deter run-selling, but is that really mandatory? With a reduced lockout, experienced raiders would be more apt to help struggling players through the content, deterring run-buying all on its own. Lower lockouts also gives players incentive to log in more frequently during the week...how many raid loggers have unsubbed between patches due to a dearth of interesting content for them to do?

Is a two or three-day lockout as prophetically disastrous as people want to claim? The content would still be gated, as you have no way of guaranteeing your raid drops, but I think a reduced lockout would do much to alleviate the frustrations of people who feel as though they're being pushed away from raiding and to other aspects of the game they don't find enjoyable.

"If you want hardcore raiding, then this isn't the game for you," some might say. But I ask - why not? There are a few solutions here that could make multiple groups happy. A loot lockout vs. a completion lockout may not deter content selling, but it wouldn't really encourage it, either. From what I understand, most buyers are interested in the clear, not necessarily the loot. Someone MIGHT buy an exorbitant amount of runs in the hopes of getting their dream item, but I'd think that number would be statistically small. Full 110 groups are already selling runs anyway...a weekly lockout lowers their prospective clients, but hurts so many other players that I think it needs to change.

If a loot lockout isn't feasible, tiered raiding is something else that could be implemented. This segues into another complaint that I have - set raiding sizes. Other MMOs have a varied quantity of player characters allowed into a raid that inextricably altered the difficulty of the raid, but also affected your loot gain: a raid in TERA, for instance, could be 10 or 20-man, with the same probability of loot distribution across each. A 10-man raid required more player skill, but because of it's smaller size you had a higher chance of getting an item, by virtue of less competition. A 20-man version of the same raid might see you walk out with no loot, but new players aren't ostracized or removed for mistakes, because more players made for a larger margin of player fallacy. Both raid tiers are on a shared lockout, so the players would get to choose what type they prefer.

Both reduced timers and varied raid sizes made raids in TERA verrrrry PUGable (it was the MMO I played before this one, just using it as an example), which seems to be the biggest roadblock to completion for most players in this game. Most forum posts I've seen about raiding are generally centered around how they require a static, and I largely agree. I'd prefer another way to keep gear upgrades gated than to block off some of the most interesting content this game has.

So, with that said...what are others' thoughts on the raiding scene of this game in general?

[Hippo]

For me, my main gripe is that I cannot help my other LS friends after I have cleared weekly coil.

[Exstal]

I am content. The only thing the game needs is more simultaneous raids. One, with 4 parts, per week is not cutting it well enough.

experienced raiders would be more apt to help struggling players through the content,

You see, they don't want this to happen.

[Xatsh]

IN order for SE to reduce the lockout they would also have to reduce the rewards, which them the casual crowd would rant that it is too big of a gear grind. Already people wanting the choice to choose an item everytime they win.

The problem in my eyes is the damage the current model does to endgame guilds. It is a horrific cancer that forces you to screw over people in your own guild, instead of bringing your group together and strengthening the group. SE has focused endgame on small group statics and pugs instead of guilds. Yoshida even stated this was the intention. Which is wrong the path for them to take. Endgame should be about guilds, community, and guild wide progression. The guild is what keeps people playing long term, it is the bonds with people you meet that make a mmo a mmo it is the defining difference between a mmo and the rest of the rpg genre. The problem with raiding is the developers mentality that if they add guild content... then those who are not in guilds cannot progress. Instead of the correct mentalty of forcing people into guilds at endgame... it is a mmo after all.

SE at the expansion needs to look at large scale varied size content. Something you can take between 8-24 people into... can scale it if they want. That drops BIS gear and has very difficult mechanics. Not Crystal/S Tower difficulty where you can repetitively bash your head on the keyboard and still win. If people in 4 man guilds cannot beat it... they need to be told to join a linkshell that does it, or join a bigger fc. THE CATERING TO THE LOWEST DENOMINATOR IS THE PROBLEM IN RAIDING.

SE need to put BIS gear coming from GUILD BASED CONTENT.

[Fendred]

F*** no, this raiding structure is the worst. The only game that can survive having rat race progression and keep a sub model is something with World of Warcraft vanilla to Lich King insane growth rate. The progression structure leads to one group of people rushing everything and then having no reason to stay (no community worth noting forms) or they get angry because they fall behind so they leave (builds toxic, utilitarian raid community). It corrupts the entire purpose of raiding which was to get people to say "hey, buddy, want to go do something with us?" to "omg, we need to clear raid x in y months or we'll be playing catchup!"

World of Warcraft was able to survive because the consistent influx of new players constantly restrengthened the community in spite of the gearing structure. That and people had to depend on one another due to nothing like a Duty Finder existing, but I don't think Duty Finder is a problem. It's only problematic because everyone is going to take the path of least resistance in a rat race.

In conclusion, this is the progression model that devours mens souls and leaves them hollow shambling carcases doomed to do the same to everyone else.

[SarcasmMisser]

From what I understand, most buyers are interested in the clear, not necessarily the loot. Someone MIGHT buy an exorbitant amount of runs in the hopes of getting their dream item, but I'd think that number would be statistically small.

You misunderstand, people are buying loot when they buy runs. Even on content where a clear is necessary to access other content (T5), people who are buying for the loot are the largest group of clients. There is nothing after T9 right now so there is not a single person who isn't buying it for the loot.

Is a two or three-day lockout as prophetically disastrous as people want to claim?

Honestly I think it not a bad idea to do this at the midpoint in a raid's life, say when 2.3 comes out have a gradual easing of the lock out instead of a strict cap until the ilevel jumps with the massive dead period before it so people have more reason to log on.

a raid in TERA, for instance,

To be brutal and blunt, raiding in TERA was awful and completely unrefined and there were many reasons why most seasoned raiders ditched that game not long after it went f2p.

[dejavutwo]

Raid lockouts are standard in MMOs because players can clear content much quicker than it can possibly be developed.

If Coil was on a weekly loot lockout instead of a regular weekly, then groups would farm various turns for gear until everyone gets something. This would shorten the lifespan of the raids as you could in theory gear up an entire raid in ~6 weeks at the 2 drop/boss rate if all turns share the same lockout, or gear an entire raid in 2 weeks if they don't. The alternative to that is that they reduce the rewards, but that just makes the game more RNG and more frustrating as drops are now going to have to be balanced against the expectation that you are running multiple times a week.

It is true that raiders that finish content do tend to fall into a pattern of logging in once a week to raid, then never log in again, but if they are able to max out their character in a few weeks in content that is supposed to last 6 months, they will just get to that point much faster.

[Thalesia]

I agree with the adobe, but i would like help other people on the FC to do the runs as well, now you just cant since you already beat it or you waiting for your static group to do it. The only way to do now is wait for the next patch where it goes open raid, but when that happens there is another new raid... and the same thing again.

Don't know the answer to this, but maybe i hope it get fixed with the expansion.

[ChiefCurrahee]

I'm not happy with the current weekly lock out on content. There are a few people are inbetween casual and dedicated raiders in my FC, or who aren't part of a static grp. They are unfortunately left out of coil until it gets nerfed and unlocked.

I would much rather have a player locked out of look on a weekly basis than locked out of the content. Just to let my fellow FC members get a chance to play. This would probably lead to a lot of selling runs but at least it adds more replay to the game.


What I really want is an alternative raid path, maybe 8 man dungeons with difficult trash pulls, that require CC, off tanking, kiting and use of lesser used skills like, slow, silence, pacification and bind ect. ect. The trash leads to multiple boss encounters (elite dungeon strength bosses), at the end of the dungeon you face off with a "mega boss" similar in strength as a coil boss.

[Thalesia]

Maybe change the current like:

- No lockout
- first win you can see 2 items, after the first win you have a RNG to get another piece (or chance to be able to "unlock" and you could need/greed). So you could help and "may" have a chance to be able to loot. This reset after 1 week.

So, that way, content will be open for all, the loot will be restricted by a RNG after the first win for that player, and he can help others to complete and still have a chance to be able to have a loot.

All win.