[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Kurokikaze]

The proposed system is comprehensive, but relatively complex due to the point sub-system, the Job Tree restrictions, and the necessary overhaul of a majority of the Armory Class abilities to the Job Trees. Some character progress would be effectively wiped by the change over. The proposed system is also more restrictive than the job/subjob system from FFXI. Some might consider that a step backwards, rather than evolution forward.

How exactly would current character progress be wiped?

[Nivana]

Too many posts to quote on an iPad at work so, 2nd FFT style unlocking of advanced classes.

Love the idea of Each class separate from each other with it's own weapons.

[Sorel]

How exactly would current character progress be wiped?

Some (not all) character progress would effectively be wiped (made useless or unavailable) by the extensive re-balancing of abilities mentioned in the OP.

They will have traits and abilities that can only be used while in that spec. In order to appease the players that have grown fond of using abilities from other disciplines; let them use skills from the class up until a certain rank or go through them all up to a certain rank and re-balance them for use cross-class. Unfortunately the thing that is repeated in both methods is "up to a certain rank" - don't be fooled: the line must be drawn somewhere to avoid exploiting and promote uniqueness across all classes. Personally I would re-balance skills up to Rank 20 and draw the line there. I can hear the complaints already from people who use Rank 30+ skills on other classes but these people are oblivious to the fact that that is killing other classes. Unfortunately this is something that I feel must be done.

A player is currently building a character to be an Elezen Spellarcher (a master of ranged combat, be it martial or mystical) by combining her Rank 40 Archery with her Rank 40 Conjurery. So right now, that character can wield a bow and cast Sleep (at reduced effect) to help maintain crowd control and to allow her to keep her range if the enemy gets too close. Or that character can wield a wand and use enmity reducing abilities like Chameleon & Out Of Sight to keep attention away from herself.

The ability rebalancing and cross-class cut-off of abilities after Rank 30 that the proposed system would require, makes the above character concept no longer possible. That player's effort and progress to build a Spellarcher would effectively be wiped to a certain degree due to the restriction imposed by the proposed system.

Again, as an old-school D&D player, I'm a fan of encouraging creative character builds. It seems like the proposed system takes some creativity out of the hands of the players, and puts it in the hands of that developement person that assigns abilities to the Job Trees. Under the proposed system, the only way to build a character like what I described above would be for SE to make a Spellarcher Job Specialization Tree specifically for it.

Once again, let me know if I am mistaken in this regard.

[Shazaam]

The ability rebalancing and cross-class cut-off of abilities after Rank 30 that the proposed system would require, makes the above character concept no longer possible. That player's effort and progress to build a Spellarcher would effectively be wiped to a certain degree due to the restriction imposed by the proposed system.

Again, as an old-school D&D player, I'm a fan of encouraging creative character builds. It seems like the proposed system takes some creativity out of the hands of the players, and puts it in the hands of that developement person that assigns abilities to the Job Trees. Under the proposed system, the only way to build a character like what I described above would be for SE to make a Spellarcher Job Specialization Tree specifically for it.

Once again, let me know if I am mistaken in this regard.

'

You are not mistaken. The only way to build a character that you described would be for SE to make a 'Spellarcher' Job specialization tree.

The problem here is that you want a paper-based D&D system for your MMO. There just is not the amount of money, time, or resources to recreate the power of the human imagination in a computer game. The proposed system DOES take some of the creativity out of the player's hands, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to give ultimate creativity to the players in any game.

First you must realize the truth: that there is no Spellarcher. There will not be a Spellarcher. Let's try to focus on something feasible and FUN instead of what could be created with sheer imagination. The tech just isn't capable. The best you can make is a mage with archer skills. If I can make ANYTHING then it is boring. If I have to work withing certain rules with enough room to BEND them but not BREAK them it is fun. (IE: you want to be a 'Spellarcher'? Team up a battle regimen with a mage and turn your shot into a Sleepshot or Fireshot from having the mage cast a spell while you fire an arrow in a specific way).

Limitless possibility is boring (and unachievable), learning to BEND the rules is fun. There have to be rules to bend.

[Uraeus]

Uraeus approves the original post.

[Kurokikaze]

Not only is it impossible to give unlimited freedom and have it be balanced but even when you do have that freedom you don't do things like put Sleep on an Archer. From a min-max perspective thats really dumb; instead having that class take away another class' crowd control why not give them one (they also have Shadowbind)...?

What I'm trying to say is that even though you have all these choices now you always narrow it down to a select few because they seem to be the best choices that will help you do your role. While I may be imposing these restrictions on that system I am giving you some very valid choices and telling you to choose from there and still giving players enough wiggle room that they need to play around with certain combinations of talents/traits/skills to figure out whats best.

Freedom is an illusion. Just because you could sub whatever job you wanted to on your character doesn't mean you did. Specifically for RNG you chose between WAR, SAM and NIN not BLM/WHM/RDM/etc.

Do you understand what I mean?

As for this Spell Archer thats something I saw in the intro movie and thought would be cool for Battle Regimens but like a skillchain. With new visuals for the combined attack between a RNG's WS and BLM's fire nuke. Higher levels of it too that use higher level weapon skills and spells. Problem with that is they need to seriously rework Battle Regimens - not because of the idea but because its fundamentally clunky, hard to execute, and overall fairly pointless aside of a few things.

[Sorel]

My point is that right now today, in FFXIV, I can create a Spellarcher-type character. It's not impossible. It is possible right now. I am not proposing giving unlimited freedom. It is impossible to code that. But that SE did manage to code is the freedom we have right now in the game. I don't think that should be discarded, but instead built upon.

I personally do not believe it is progress or evolution to make the game not only more restrictive than it is currently, but more restrictive then the previous version (FFXI).

If I was only playing the game to build a walking, talking, fighting bag-of-roles called "Sorel" then the proposed system would be fine. I would lose nothing. But I'm not. I'm building a character ... a representative of me in Eorzea. My character needs to have a story, needs to grow, needs to be able to use his imagination ... my imagination ... to become better at whatever he chooses to do.

A character that aspires to start the first Spellarcher Guild in Eorzea has to deal with many limitations. He has to come up with a set of tactics that maximize his strengths (range) while minimizing weaknesses (spells can only be single target). He has to learn how to fit into a party and utilize his unique set of skills to bring them success. He has to figure out which of his tactics and skills are best used against certain enemies (Drown + Shell Arrow + Water vs. Firedrakes), and which enemies that he should avoid altogether. Figuring all this out for your character is part of the fun of any RPG ... including MMORPGs.

Now I understand the must be limits. But not all limits are of the same scope. Some are more restrictive than others. I believe that the proposed system, though well-intentioned and well-thought out, imposes just a little bit too much restriction. Limits are OK. Forcing a character into a box is what is disagree with philosophically. The proposed system takes away the player's freedom to make their own box for their character.

I think we will have to just agree to disagree on this. Anyway I do appreciate the OP, and the thread ... all 30 pages. Keep up the good work. And it is good work ... even if I don't agree with it. One should recognize and respect true talent and skill ... even if they have to oppose it in the end.

[Kurokikaze]

Yes you can do that. But is that good? Not in the slightest bit. You've essentially wasted action points because you will be outperformed by every other Archer that is boosting their attack by using their points to get abilities that do that from other classes as opposed to a spell they wont ever use.

Ahh I see, thats why we're not on the same page. I'm a person that encourages people to do their job and perform well at it. I'm a min-maxer, an FFXI BG poster, a WoW Elitist Jerks poster - you on the other hand are the type that plays what you want regardless of whether or not its good.

We will never agree. So I give up.

[Shazaam]

Ahh I see, thats why we're not on the same page. I'm a person that encourages people to do their job and perform well at it. I'm a min-maxer, an FFXI BG poster, a WoW Elitist Jerks poster - you on the other hand are the type that plays what you want regardless of whether or not its good.

We will never agree. So I give up.

I am with kaze on this, and similarily, a BG poster when I played FFXI and an elitist jerks reader when I played WoW... but I think that this is the kind of theorycraft and conjecture that are reflective of a game with limits that give true depth and 'replay-ability' that encourages both veterans and newcomers in this genre.

The base theory here does not make the game 'more restrictive than FFXI', it allows the game to be less restrictive than FFXI. Which was far less restrictive than WoW.

You have one character that can potentially change to any class anytime you chose.

The specializations of any advanced class may have to be changed in a city, but you could change from a specialized tank to a specialized healer to a specialized debuffer on the fly in the middle of a party. This is the most freedom that any MMO could possibly offer.

If you want to be a 'Spellarcher', either stick to the paper and pencil format, or try to find a dev tag for the battle system that would let you do the things shown in the opening movie... like a fireshot or freeze shot. (I think that might be what they are aiming for with the combat system revamp anyway... at least I hope it is... with battle regiments becoming more like combo skills... even a 'Meteo' cast by three different mages? FFXI or FFIV anyone?)

[javid]

I am happy to see ppl thinking of creative ways to make classes more unique yet maintain cohesion! I like the gla idea turning into drk/pld I would also parry that to the mrd as well, giving both of those classes the ability to pick between drk/pld. The mrd would be an aoe pld focus while the gla would make a one on one pld. And for the magic class give conj and thm the ability to become summoners/brd-like magic caster!!