Was Coil 2 and Ramuh extreme over tune?

[Fendred]

There seems to be some confusion here about what constitutes a "faster" and "slower" end game fight when comparing the end game of different MMORPGs at different periods in time. Decreasing the overall speed of the game only increases a person's ability to react to mechanics if and only if cooldowns are not limiting the player's ability to react. FFXIV has a pretty big global cooldown relative to its competitors. You might be able to feasibly react to a fast casting spell, but be prevented from doing so by global cooldown (like when an amalj'aa is casting his fire spell, I can see it, but there is no way for me to react fast enough to them with global cooldown).

So the pace of end game is mostly dictated by the window the game provides you with for responding to different mechanics. From that perspective, the end game isn't any less challenging than any other end game. Its just exchanging a bit of one kind of challenge for a different one (reflex test exchanged for a bit more expert timing).

[SwashBuccaneer]

Maybe if people weren't being handed out high item level gear they would know wtf was going on and have some sort of an idea on how to play their class?

[Fendred]

Maybe if people weren't being handed out high item level gear they would know wtf was going on and have some sort of an idea on how to play their class?

That really isn't the problem. The problem is that they tried to cater to the widest audience possible with a type of game where subjective difficulty was only ever achieved via addon support (and normal/hard raids like in Wrath of the Lich King). MMORPGs used to be "hardcore only games," but then became a business of increasing the available audience to other demographics. A game with subjective difficulty offers different paths to achieving the exact same goals for different kinds of players, and the primary goal of any RPG is to move your character through the available story. Coil is connected to the main plot of the game, so of course they want to progress through it.

The fact is they have created a game with a fixed difficulty that is not balanced properly for the majority of its intended audience. I'd love to have a game that caters specifically to older MMORPG players like myself, who loved the communities that were small and consisting of highly dedicated gamers. However, this game will never achieve that goal because it tries to mix everyone together. Allowing addon support is the original jury-rig style solution to the problem.

Case in point, Wrath of the Lich King was the high point for World of Warcraft, and consisted of end game encounters that were significantly easier than previous end game content and eventually offered two modes of doing them: Normal and Hard. Normal was not like Crystal Tower in difficulty. It still presented a challenge for players to coordinate against, but provided a lesser route for all players to see the story. I think I'd like to see more of that instead of the huge limbo of really easy to truly hard we have in this game.

Plus the hard modes here are a genuine part of the progression, whereas the hard modes in Wrath were an option that gave slightly better gear, but didn't effect progression (hardmode gear was not required for next release of content).

[Taika]

Gonna be honest: The problem with the REX DPS check is that it requires every DPS to be playing their job correctly unless the DPS are significantly overgeared, and none of the content before it is helping DPS get practice in playing their job correctly any more. The extreme opacity of how damage mechanics work in the game (and MMOs in general) isn't helping them learn, either.

I pin this strictly on the game. When older, puggable fights were relevant, they still placed an impetus on players to learn and perform their way up. Now everyone is thrown into the deep end of the pool with some cute looking i90 floaties and told to swim - with absolutely no preparation on anything but how to doggy-paddle.

I think this is a big issue. Fresh level 50s, or those players that didn't do extremes or first coil before echo and current item level, basically fly through all content in i100-i110 gear. Echo and item level have nerfed all the fights in the way that players don't actually have to learn to play their jobs very well until they hit turn 6 (if even then with full i110 parties now). I consider myself to be a better than average WHM right now, but I've gotten to this point by being absolutely horrible first in original relic primals, and then getting gradually better in first coil (where we actually had to plan everything carefully to be able to get through bosses), first three extremes and especially turn 5. Fresh level 50s and people new to the highest difficulty endgame content have never had these learning experiences. I'm not saying they're bad by default, but they've simply not been prepared for the content by the game.

[cryptic_angel]

That really isn't the problem.The problem is that they tried to cater to the widest audience possible with a type of game where subjective difficulty was only ever achieved via addon support (and normal/hard raids like in Wrath of the Lich King). MMORPGs used to be "hardcore only games," but then became a business of increasing the available audience to other demographics. A game with subjective difficulty offers different paths to achieving the exact same goals for different kinds of players, and the primary goal of any RPG is to move your character through the available story. Coil is connected to the main plot of the game, so of course they want to progress through it.

The fact is they have created a game with a fixed difficulty that is not balanced properly for the majority of its intended audience. I'd love to have a game that caters specifically to older MMORPG players like myself, who loved the communities that were small and consisting of highly dedicated gamers. However, this game will never achieve that goal because it tries to mix everyone together. Allowing addon support is the original jury-rig style solution to the problem.

Case in point, Wrath of the Lich King was the high point for World of Warcraft, and consisted of end game encounters that were significantly easier than previous end game content and eventually offered two modes of doing them: Normal and Hard. Normal was not like Crystal Tower in difficulty. It still presented a challenge for players to coordinate against, but provided a lesser route for all players to see the story. I think I'd like to see more of that instead of the huge limbo of really easy to truly hard we have in this game.

Plus the hard modes here are a genuine part of the progression, whereas the hard modes in Wrath were an option that gave slightly better gear, but didn't effect progression (hardmode gear was not required for next release of content).

I agree with many of your points, but how much more balancing do we need? Non-raiding players receive way more content than raiding players do. I don't think we need to decrease the difficulty of raids at all in this game.

Players are not missing out on much by skipping SCoB for now. The only story really contained in SCoB is a single cut scene from T9. The rest of the CS are not hardly as interesting.

The whole binding coil/bahamut story is way more like a side story to the game. The primal/main scenario story lines are much more in-depth and interesting. I won't say too much about the binding coil/bahamut story because I don't want to ruin it for anyone, but it really just boils down to about one CS per raid tier that is super interesting.

When there was some sort of story I could not attain in wow, such as a heroic only boss encounter (algalon), I would just watch the story off of youtube. I know it's not as glamorous, but I knew my limitations and I was not going to poop on dedicated raiders by demanding that every bit of story be handed to me.

I think this is a big issue. Fresh level 50s, or those players that didn't do extremes or first coil before echo and current item level, basically fly through all content in i100-i110 gear. Echo and item level have nerfed all the fights in the way that players don't actually have to learn to play their jobs very well until they hit turn 6 (if even then with full i110 parties now). I consider myself to be a better than average WHM right now, but I've gotten to this point by being absolutely horrible first in original relic primals, and then getting gradually better in first coil (where we actually had to plan everything carefully to be able to get through bosses), first three extremes and especially turn 5. Fresh level 50s and people new to the highest difficulty endgame content have never had these learning experiences. I'm not saying they're bad by default, but they've simply not been prepared for the content by the game.

I think this is very insightful point. We all had a time where we ate a landslide, stood in the wrong place, or missed our mark during a coordination check. We became better players because we endured the mechanics and learned how to play this game better.

There was a steady work up to the first BCoB where (unless you bought your runs) you had to accomplish much to progress into the raid. The three HM primals served as a great training mechanism for players to hone their skills before stepping into the SCoB. There was also a difficulty curve in BCoB that was much more shallow than the one in the SCoB.

Now with the SCoB, the first BCoB serves as the mechanism to train players much as the HM primals did. However, with the echo buff, easy to obtain gear, and easy to obtain weapons, players are not gaining the same amount of experience leading up to the SCoB.

New players are really at a disadvantage. I think it is inescapable though. As a expansion or new game progress, any new players will be far behind the closer the next expansion is.

As to addon support as well, I agree that the fights in this game are tuned to the difficulty that most players would need a deadly boss mods sort of add-on to help them out. Some players need a little more help than others and I think that is fine. It is not the end of world if a raider uses such an app. I personally don't like those type of apps, but I rather see a person be successful with an app than being unsuccessful without one.

[Xellos2099]

I agree on the Ramuh ex thing. Remember I mention I was having issue with pug? I was talking to an old coil static member; we end up one shoting it. We used to farm coil 1 together before the echo buff.

I am guessing there is really a difference of skill of those who clear it before echo and after the echo buff. And another point, I think the original 3 ex primal was a good training tool for bcob instead if second coil. I remember I used to have issue with getting out of divebomb on time but after training dodge the landslide and the double weight in titan ex I eventually able to dodge the divebomb.

[Colt47]

I agree on the Ramuh ex thing. Remember I mention I was having issue with pug? I was talking to an old coil static member; we end up one shoting it. We used to farm coil 1 together before the echo buff.

I am guessing there is really a difference of skill of those who clear it before echo and after the echo buff. And another point, I think the original 3 ex primal was a good training tool for bcob instead if second coil. I remember I used to have issue with getting out of divebomb on time but after training dodge the landslide and the double weight in titan ex I eventually able to dodge the divebomb.

It really does make a difference when the group has done and is used to doing raid level content and I think everyone would be happier if there was an easy way to figure out who has that experience (without jumping off the symbolic cliff).

[Triston]

I'd love to have a game that caters specifically to older MMORPG players like myself, who loved the communities that were small and consisting of highly dedicated gamers.

You mean like Wildstar? They gave exactly what 'hardcore' gamers demanded and have been bleeding subs since launch because of the oppressively high barrier to entry the moment you hit level cap, daunting even to the 'hardcore,' resulting in a highly toxic, elitist community from day 1.
Most game developers learned from WoW that the 'hardcore gamers' are literally impossible to please, as a group and even individually, so we have games like this, where it's aimed at the average player, (which unfortunately has its own pitfalls like have been discussed throughout the thread) with a very small portion of content that's over-tuned so snobs can get their rocks off by feeling superior.

[Triston]

snip

This is absolutely correct and the fault of iLvl creep; the content you do in i90 is a dozen times more punishing and unforgiving than what you did in i55, but new players are simply not prepared for it even through story mode fights. It's SE's onus to fix that, then maybe we can have a broader spectrum of content that isn't the current "pathetic" vs "SCOB"; it's not the new players' faults that they get creamed in the first real fights they attempt because they got i90-110 gear shoveled down their throats by the game itself, causing them to coast through what was supposed to be learning content, but the result of that is elitist raiders being gigantic assholes to them, followed by newbies whining until said content gets nerfed into the ground, (Echo) followed by the same raiders complaining that the newbies are ruining 'their' game.

[skaterger]

You mean like Wildstar? They gave exactly what 'hardcore' gamers demanded and have been bleeding subs since launch because of the oppressively high barrier to entry the moment you hit level cap, daunting even to the 'hardcore,' resulting in a highly toxic, elitist community from day 1.
Most game developers learned from WoW that the 'hardcore gamers' are literally impossible to please, as a group and even individually, so we have games like this, where it's aimed at the average player, (which unfortunately has its own pitfalls like have been discussed throughout the thread) with a very small portion of content that's over-tuned so snobs can get their rocks off by feeling superior.

No, carbine studios got it wrong when they mistook difficulty for time sinks. A game can be difficult without requiring you to devote half your life to it. The attunement to raiding was ridiculous with silver (though I heard that they changed it recently). Not to mention the multitude of bugs that plagued the game in vet dungeons and adventures. Many people wanted to raid there but they could not find enough people that finished the attunement and left. The fights were difficult and fun as hell though and ill still be playing if not for the problems mentioned above.