Was Coil 2 and Ramuh extreme over tune?

[Krr]

Please enlighten me on how you "que" for turn 9 without clearing turns 6 to 8?

That's the point of queue checking for 'experience'.

[Sapphic]

The game has been training you to dodge the glowy shit on the floor for 50 levels as well, so the learning curve for dodging has been taught.
As for before when Titan HM was new at launch, well just look at the reward, it was the gate to Coil and your relic, it was specifically designed to be hard. Now it's training wheel content and we've just established that damage isn't enough of a punishment.

Not to mention, Titan story mode had landslides also so the previous experience of handling them should be there.

To the person you quoted: The only new thing from story Titan to HM titan is the bombs, from HM Titan to Ex Titan, only new mechanix is the adds. So how are players not given the experience to have an idea when they go in? Also I recomend to those who died and got "carried" through HMs in roulette that they should keep redoing the fight until they are able to survive till they end.

[skaterger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfxPZZ6fmNE

Fast forward 3 years. 2014 ARR/Wow RIP.

[Triston]

To reply to myself and pre-empt: Landslide obviously is not obtuse, it's heavily telegraphed, but being unrecoverable is still poor design for entry content. Other OHKO mechanics however are more obtuse: Ifrit's Nails and Titan's Heart are obvious, but for a new player to the genre in other fights it's not necessarily clear that they will instantly wipe. Garuda is worse: the first time in your average player might not know that Chirada and Suparna HAVE TO DIE ASAP. They are adds with their own abilities and modestly substantial health bars; it's not unreasonable to think they are additional mobs that must be tanked and dealt with while burning Garuda. This is not to mention the Spiny Plume mechanic in Garuda EX, Leviathan's energy generator, King Mog EX requiring that every add die simultaneously (he might be the worst, since the game literally tells you in previous guildhests to take out lesser foes one by one before resuming fighting the boss, and in HM it's totally fine if they die separately, AND if you mess this up in the final phase you wipe with the King at like 4%)

These are all great mechanics for experienced raiders, but now that they've moved into the mainstream, (<--- this is the key aspect here! These are fights that a new 50 might be doing after having just gotten out of clearing a bunch of pathetic 4-man dungeons) they're very punishing with relatively little forewarning or information.
The problem isn't the fights themselves, they're well-made, it's that they're now accessible to literally anyone. Like he said, the progression for a new-to-MMOs player doing their Relic quest will be: Chimera, (someone else handles the interrupts) Hydra, (someone heals them through the Terror) Ifrit, (the other DPS sneeze on nails and they fall over) Garuda, (the other DPS look sternly at plumes/chirada/suparna and they pop) Titan, (they die to first Landslide and get carried through a 7-man anyway without learning ANY ASPECT OF THE FIGHT) and now they have i90 weapon and i90 gear and have had no opportunity to really learn anything, because nothing is punishing enough to force them to learn. Now they enter into Extremes and haven't a fraction of the knowledge they need to clear it, and the punishments have amped up to "one guy fucked up, the entire party wipes."
Old players obviously won't put up with that, so they get kicked and stay at i90 until they discover Hunts and upgrade to i110 all without ever being provided the opportunity to learn how to play using appropriate gear against an appropriately-tuned encounter with appropriate-to-their-skill punishments. HM *used* to do that but gear has so far surpassed it that there's no hope.

We're not saying that having hard encounters is bad, (it's awesome) but rather that the gear progression (philo being wiped out and replaced with myth, producing i90, plus hunts that can take an i50 player straight to i110) has eliminated the potential for new players to learn what the hell they're doing before they jump into DF.

[Parawill]

Never have I thought trial and error was a bad game design considering it's something you do for almost every thing you do in life. It's interesting and... well... You get to learn something new everyday. And the "casual gamer" stereotype should have another title because not wanting to learn things to do things is beyond the word casual.

[Sapphic]

That's the point of queue checking for 'experience'.

Still do not explain how you que for turn 9 to check if others have cleared previous turns prior. You CANNOT que for turn 9 unless you have cleared t6-8 that week. If you have cleared t6-8 that week, you cannot enter into them again until the following weekly reset.

Learn what you are saying before you say it ^^

[Exstal]

it's not unreasonable to think they are additional mobs that must be tanked and dealt with while burning Garuda.

It's actually completely unreasonable. If anything in any game teaches you, it's that you must kill the smaller foes before resuming to kill the main boss lest you be overwhelmed.

[Triston]

It's actually completely unreasonable. If anything in any game teaches you, it's that you must kill the smaller foes before resuming to kill the main boss lest you be overwhelmed.

That's actually fair, it's the reasoning I used for Mog; on the other hand a new player wouldn't know about the time crunch involved. DPS checks in HM will be automatically passed just by virtue of having i90; when you reach EX you need to actually know what order to push your buttons in.

[Sapphic]

To reply to myself and pre-empt: Landslide obviously is not obtuse, it's heavily telegraphed, but being unrecoverable is still poor design for entry content. Other OHKO mechanics however are more obtuse: Ifrit's Nails and Titan's Heart are obvious, but for a new player to the genre in other fights it's not necessarily clear that they will instantly wipe.

It's called trial and error, you wipe, you learn from it, you progress till you get the kill. Same as it has been for every content in every MMO with a modicum of challenge.Also to reiterate about landslides, they where there in titan story mode which gave players the experience that they are lethal which should be carried over to HM and EX.

ALL mechanics are taught throughout levelling, from dungeons and guildhests. Whether it's dealing with adds and how important it is to clear them first or getting out of stuff on the floor.

Also "non lethal" abilities are not punishing if you have gear. OHKO punish everyone irregardless of gear if they make a mistake keeping a challenge there for everyone.

But im not averse to adding more challenging dungeons, dungeons closer to the "casual" Ilvl, eg ilvl 95 dungeons, more challenging Leves and guildhests for example. More options are always good.

[Triston]

snip

The issue isn't being punished, it's the grossly under and over-punishment relative to expected skill level of new players. In HM they aren't punished because no matter how they screw up they'll still get the win, and in certain EX they are punished with a full-party wipe or being removed from a fight within a minute or less. I recall doing my first Mog EX on Bard with around i90. Cleared it in I think two total attempts, and I managed all the mechanics EXCEPT: I died the first attempt to the giant meteor. (I think I must have had Blood for Blood active; I was with the whole party and at full HP, shouldn't have died otherwise) The result was being Raised and immediately 100-0'd by the Archer any time he targeted me because of Weakness. Raise, Ballad briefly, shoot a couple attacks until targeted by Archer again, die. Rinse and repeat until we wiped. That right there is a case of being overly punished, and I'm not remotely new to MMOs. Imagine if that wasn't just a fluke death, but say a new person accidentally stood in Delta Attack. Same result of being effectively removed from the fight for a single error. I've figured out how I messed up; a new player wouldn't have the opportunity to learn from their mistakes because they get to attempt the fight for about 20-30 seconds every 10-40 minutes (depending on when/if the remaining 7 wipe or clear)

However, I also agree that more challenging dungeons and especially guildhests to ease new players into these sorts of OHKO mechanics is the solution. Brayflox isn't bad at this, but since it became Speedflox or get kicked there is again little room for learning.