SE's most difinitive statement yet on parsers

[Kaethra]

Once again while i don't support nor discourage the usage of parsers and I'm not one of the people attempting to demonize their usage nor the players who use them, this isn't exactly a grey area.

As far as SE's ToS is concerned and while the term "parser" is stated, it's pretty clear they mean ANY third party program that reads or has access to any of the game files in any manner, regardless if any change is made to game data whatsoever.

Again, we have to agree on which files we are talking about here. The log files are NOT in the same location as the game files. One is in the Program Files folder, the other is in the Documents folders. The game doesn't use the log files for anything. It dumps them in there just like it does with screenshots.

In fact this was originally brought up in response to data mining ages ago even though the act of data mining doesn't change or alter game data in any way it's still against the ToS.

Again, the parsers I have used in the past in previous games have no data mining capability. Data mining being described as intercepting packets. Most other MMOs disallow this as well (database websites usually get a license to do this like ZAM or WoWHead).

It makes no difference as far as the ToS is concerned as to what other MMOs are doing, the fact is simple that using a parser is considered a reportable and bannable offense now.

I've read the TOS just before I wrote this, and there is no mention of it specifically.

programs like TS, Vent, and Mumble while they do offer a significant advantage when it concerns player communication, are completely stand alone programs that do not read or interpret game data and therefore are not relevant comparisons to this conversation. They are referring directly to 3rd party programs that access FFXIV data files and not whether or not you have minesweeper running in the background.

If it is against the ToS they are flat out saying it is a bannable offense if it is reported. There is no grey area or any hidden meaning to this; no weighing of benefits, no relevance or examples of what other MMOs do, no wiggle room or grey area that can be argued with a GM should they decide to take action against your account.

And this is where things are going to get fuzzy. IFF (not a typo, if and only if) it turns out they wish to crack down on parsers. How do they enforce it? Anyone who gets reported for it is now in trouble? No, that won't happen. They'll have to use some sort of metric to detect it. Of course detecting changes done to the contents of the \\Documents\My Games\FINAL FANTASY XIV - A Realm Reborn\ folder is going to result in many many false postitives. Especially since the log files share the same location as the screenshots.

And to go further on that. If they want to restrict that, do they restrict screenshots too? I mean log files and screenshots both share the following characteristics: They are both in the same folder. They are both output by the game. Neither are used by the game executable during play.

Also Parsers like the ones I have been describing are completely stand alone programs that do not need the game to be running (or even installed as the logs remain after uninstall) to function. In fact I don't even think the game can delete or alter those files itself without elevated priveledges in Windows.

Do you simply turn a blind eye to it?

Regardless of people using parsers or not it's obvious when damage is lower than it should be.

Parsers is a tool that can be used to inform players and the majority use of it is to weed out the bad by pointing out that their numbers in damage, healing, damage taken from certain abilities isn't where the "cookie cutter" numbers states that you should be in. That's the biggest offense with the tool and it's what is mainly used for. No matter how many times people want to put a positive spin on it that just ain't the case since those players don't aim for a avg threshold to go, yeah that will do good enough everything else is up to execution. It's used to see max consist value to try and get as best results possible with the least amount of tries.

I don't see the issue here. Whether I look at the log and count up the damage and divide by the time, or let a program or spreadsheet do it for me, whats the difference? Just like in your example with TS being the same as using a cellphone, or other means of comms.

Again I'm talking about non-overlayed, non-datamining means of parsing. Aka, using the logs. I don't advocate messing with actual installed files (in harddrive or RAM) or data in IP packets.

[Ryel]

And this is where things are going to get fuzzy. IFF (not a typo, if and only if) it turns out they wish to crack down on parsers. How do they enforce it? Anyone who gets reported for it is now in trouble? No, that won't happen. They'll have to use some sort of metric to detect it. Of course detecting changes done to the contents of the \\Documents\My Games\FINAL FANTASY XIV - A Realm Reborn\ folder is going to result in many many false postitives. Especially since the log files share the same location as the screenshots.

And to go further on that. If they want to restrict that, do they restrict screenshots too? I mean log files and screenshots both share the following characteristics: They are both in the same folder. They are both output by the game. Neither are used by the game executable during play.

If i recall correctly the first time a thread regarding SE's concerns on parsers was posted (during 2.0) the question initially came up in regards to a warning a player received for talking about one in game during the course of calling out the DPS (or lack thereof) of another player.

Obviously there is no way SE can know what you do or don't have installed client side without allowing the game to install rather intrusive software to scan your system (there are a few games that do this). However what they CAN do is review the in game chat logs should you be reported for harassment and clearly see if someone says "Well your DPS is X because this program says so" at which point action can be taken.

Those who played FFXI will remember similar discussions about the use of 3rd party programs that allowed you to parse data and see things like party member TP and the same rules generally applied, if there was enough in-game proof of a player speaking about or using one to harass another player then it was grounds for a GM to take action.

Also Parsers like the ones I have been describing are completely stand alone programs that do not need the game to be running (or even installed as the logs remain after uninstall) to function. In fact I don't even think the game can delete or alter those files itself without elevated priveledges in Windows

SE is likely not to condone one 3rd party program over another regardless of how it functions until they add official addon support to the game, and even then those programs that they do approve will most likely be required to have features that meet a set of guidelines.

This allows them to control what they do and don't want the playerbase to have access to, at which point it can be inferred that any third party game related program that can be used detrimentally (see: to harass) or to gain advantage (see: exploit) will most likely fall under grounds for account action / termination.

This is very much a "Their house, their rules" scenario

I don't see the issue here. Whether I look at the log and count up the damage and divide by the time, or let a program or spreadsheet do it for me, whats the difference? Just like in your example with TS being the same as using a cellphone, or other means of comms.

Again I'm talking about non-overlayed, non-datamining means of parsing. Aka, using the logs. I don't advocate messing with actual installed files (in harddrive or RAM) or data in IP packets.

Fundamentally i agree with you,

The players that have issues with simply parsing will likely have the same grievances against stopwatches or calculators, as parsing (strictly parsing only) is harmless in what it does as a tool of calculation. unfortunately players themselves are not as unbiased or objective as numbers are and the potential for harassment is a very real thing.

Now while i personally see that the benefits outweigh the detriments when it comes to this we're talking about the same company that once again has disallowed /tells in dungeons for similar reasons.

Ironically though it's hard not to find amusement in the many players who will rally out against the perceived "evils" of parsing out of a fear of being called out or dealing with other players, but will still reap the benefits of those that use them to determine things like optimal rotations or BiS gear setups.

If the perception of this is to change (and it most likely won't) the case will have to continue to be made for an in-game feature to allow us to see player performance (which I'll surely advocate for right along with anyone else).

But as far as 3rd party applications go in this case (parsing / data calculation) it would appear that their stance is clear.

[Kaethra]

-Snip-

Sorry for cutting the post down but its getting tough to edit

I think we're on the same page and are sort of playing devil's advocate on the subject. And I liked your analogy about the stopwatch. I used to use the stopwatch on my watch whenever I took my Army PT test to keep a proper pace. That's parsing, and does that mean I cheated on my PT tests? I don't think so. And neither did my NCOs. When I look something up on the market board and use a calculator to see how much Gil I am going to have left over after buying it, is parsing too. Those examples are one value parses, but when does it become 'cheating' by some of these vocal members? When doing 2 parses, 3? 4? Where do you all draw the line? Where is SE drawing the line? Am I going to get actioned for saying I used a calculator to when buying things?

I mean I guess they could argue that everyone has a calculator and they can do it with a physical object. Well wait a minute. I could design an Android app to parse those log files through a wifi network (I've done similar things in my college IT projects). Does that suddenly make it ok?

There has to be a line drawn and it has to be clear cut and dry. For example, in the TOS it states that you cannot use programs that change game files. That's pretty specific and knocks out all hacks, cheats, and exploits. But Parsing is way too broad. They're going to have to be more specific. Because banning parsing means no screenshots can be modified or viewed (you can parse through these btw, using OCR technologies)

And I don't think their stance is clear. There's a 40+ page thread in the DPS Section of these forums discussing parses, damage calculators and spreadsheets for each class and none have been actioned, warned, or locked. If SE wants to be serious and crack down, every one of those threads should be locked, deleted, and the OP's and participates warned.

The only way players know how much damage a Black Mages Fire III will do with x number of Det and y amount of Magic Damage is through parsing. And they're pretty open about it.

As to the rest of the people in this thread...

My advice to anyone who is against parsing is to try them. Not on FFXIV, but on Everquest 1 or 2. GameParse for EQ1 and Advanced Combat Tracker for EQ2. Both programs are legit and authorized by SOE so you will not be breaking their TOS. See how they work and what they actually do.

Of course some of you are against them for the abuse. Well I'm sorry to say, but if someone is underperforming (whether it be their ability to Tank, DPS, or Heal, their gear, their attitude, or their performance), it is NOT harassment for me to decide I do not wish to play with them. I am free to disband from the group or my friends and I are free to vote disband the group and requeue for any reason at all or no reason at all.

Now calling names and insults is another matter entirely. That has nothing to do with Parsing. Parsing doesn't cause or make that easier, the ingame chat makes its possible. We don't ban Chat because of its ability to allow harassment.