I hope this clears up some of the Rogue>Ninja rage

[Ilenya]

With the exception of the fact he has steal and the need to steal the clothes for the South Figaro escape scene, what on earth makes Locke out to be a thief over the fact he is a treasure hunter in his own words?

Heck, remember where you find him in the WoR? Certainly not stealing.

[Starrywisdom]

One character in the entire series is far from what I'd call "traditionally FF has always given Thief-based characters a prominent role and potent abilities besides the ability to steal".
Besides, nearly every single character in the FF series that people like to call "thief" were in fact only characters with the "steal" ability. That does not make them thieves, as it is a traditional skill of solo FFs. Apart from that, there was the job thief in the early FFs which was a sub-job leading to ninja every single time.



Thief has only 2 iconic moves anyway. Flee and steal. You can't make a job with 5 skills (and more coming) based on that only.

>This guy
>Thinks thief turns into ninja in 'all the early final fantasies'
>Thinks thief only have two abilities
>Thinks only one character in 20~ games is a thief

The troll is hard in this one.

[Exstal]

>This guy
>Thinks thief turns into ninja in 'all the early final fantasies'
>Thinks thief only have two abilities
>Thinks only one character in 20~ games is a thief

The troll is hard in this one.

Thief-based characters a prominent role

The context is important.

Although, this argument is running in circles like it always will. People don't care how it happens, as long as Thief job happens. Which makes me want MartaDemireux's idea of Thief tank to happen. That'd be funny to see.

I found it

I said this in a thread a little while ago and still stand by it:

Fairly certain Yoshi said in an interview that if they do implement Ninja that it would not be a tank.

That said I could see both Thief and Ninja coming from the same class, like others said likely Rogue or Scout.

I would put my gil on saying Ninja will be a DPS utilizing water magic (staple in the series), some sort of ranged attack via Throw (another staple, Thancred also showed us this ability), a poison or a blind (ninjas would do that IRL), the electrifying AoE attack (Yugiri showed us) and perhaps a buff/stance that added or enhanced a mechanic to their attacks. They would probably focus on attacking from behind for higher potency or combos like in the 2.2 cutscenes.

I think Thief could function as either a support DPS like Bard or perhaps even more likely as a tank. If someone steals from you, you don't like them. That would be a good theme to make them a tank. They could steal enmity from others and perhaps steal an enemy's energy for "charges" to use with other abilities. They could also charm and attract the monsters attention. On the other hand they could be a support DPS by stealing enmity from one player and putting it on another. They could focus on big burst damage like Dragoon. I could see them also stealing buffs and perhaps making use of them. Maybe a mechanic where they dispel a buff but if they do it a certain way, like from behind, they can get the exact buff for a short amount of time. Or, perhaps it activates other abilities or changes the effects of some abilities. They could potentially also steal a target's TP for their own use.

For the base class I would expect there to be an ability that is similar to DoL's stealth but with a short duration and for there to be attacks that capitalize on this ability to deal extra damage or even negate enmity generated. Both Thieves and Ninjas like to operate in the shadows and both had ways to make themselves invisible in XI.

As far as Thief as a class leading into Ninja: I greatly disagree. As we have seen from current classes not one of them shares a name with a traditional FF job. I expect that to continue. It was only in FF1 where Thief upgraded directly into Ninja and if we go by those standards then Warrior would have gone into Paladin. Thief in the rest of the series has always had a separate identity from Ninja when they appeared together. Thief has also varied quite a bit depending on the game much like Scholar did so this is a great place to give it another identity of its own in a similar fashion.

Examples of its variance:
FFI: Can escape from battles.
FFIII: Can now steal.
FFV: Can now mug (attack while stealing), boost movement speed and detect hidden passages.
FFX-2: Can now steal MP, HP, inflict Berserk and Stop status effects and force the enemy to run.
FFXI: Can now transfer enmity of own attacks to another player, steal enmity from other players, steal buffs from enemies, inflict Terror and focuses on quick critical multi-hits.
FFT: Can now steal a units equipment and EXP as well as inflict Charm.
FFTA: Can now counter attacks, steal abilities directly from the enemy for use and prevent the theft and damage of your own equipment.
FFTA2: Same as FFTA but with the ability to steal the units Smash Gauge, a new battle mechanic.
FF4HoL: Can now steal from multiple enemies at once and gains an instant death ability.
BDFF: Can now convert their speed into an attack that ignores defense and recovers it's own HP when stealing an item.

So with that variance I could most certainly see a tank coming in the form of Thief in FFXIV. Throughout its history it's always had a focus of stealing but always had something different. A combination of HP/TP stealing, Terror/Stop (could function as Stun here), AoE stealing (for enmity), Berserk/Charm (could function as a provoke), countering attacks, stealing a party member's enmity and burst damage could make for an interesting tank. Evasion tanking is tough to balance though but it could potentially be done with a stance that allows the build of charges gained with stealing actions to either mitigate damage or evade it.

Essentially what I expect:

Rogue/Scout (DPS):
Stealth/Hide (PvP: blocked out or have very short duration)
Attacks focus on hitting from behind. Fast, critical hitter.
Buffs to evasion.
Steal & Swipe but won't steal items. Perhaps used in mechanic for other abilities or temporary potions. Only usable while in stealth.
Accomplice - equalize the enmity of you and another player.
Flee - increased movement speed, stacks with sprint but not with Swiftsong.

Ninja (DPS):
30: Throw - Ranged attack.
35: Blitz - AoE lightning damage.
40: Water Veil - Ranged water damage and silence.
45: Smoke Bomb - Ranged damage and Blind.
50: Mirage/Utsusemi - Buff that allows your back attack bonuses to be applied at any direction. Allows short duration of stealth while in combat. Bonus damage while in stealth.

Thief (Tank):
30: Vigilance: Tank enmity/mitigation stance. Allows counter-attacks. Changes some class abilities to generate enmity. Adds a mechanic to theft type abilities and can be used while not in stealth. Steal upgrades to Mug, Swipe to Pillage for increased enmity and added damage. Accomplice takes some of the other players enmity and adds it to your own etc.
35: Life Steal/Pilfer HP: Steals HP from target. High enmity.
40: Detect: Anticipates attacks for reduced/nullified damage.
45: Larceny: Steal an active buff from target. If no buff steals TP and deals critical damage. High enmity.
50: Perfect Dodge: Long cooldown 100% mitigation.

Thief varied a lot in other games so it can be changed significantly in this one like they did with Scholar.

[HeroSamson]

Listen stop with the whole thief thing.

They thought rogue would be the name, if the job doesn't steal anything from monsters then it ain't a thief get it got it good.

[TheRogueX]

From what I recall from the live letters, the main reason they named it Rogue was simply because they thought it wouldn't make any sense to have a "Thief" guild within a major city. What leader would go on and say "uh yep, I think having a bunch of thieves running around would make a great addition towards my society"?

Which is absolutely stupid, because why would the Thieve's Guild need or want to be accepted by the leadership of a major city? In what setting has it ever been the case that a city welcomed its Thieve's Guild? Yoshi's explanation was patently ridiculous and shows that he doesn't really get it when it comes to Thieve's Guilds. The guild wouldn't have a bright, flashy sign saying 'HEY HERE WE ARE COME TRAIN TO STEAL STUFF;' instead you'd use some form of non-verbal communication in a seedy pub and make your way into a secret back room where all the guild work took place.

Also, what leadership would have a problem with a thieve's guild WHILE STILL ALLOWING SOMETHING LIKE THE SYNDICATE TO EXIST.

"Oh, Ul'dah couldn't allow a thieve's guild, but sure, your criminal organization that regularly kidnaps people, murders people, and commits rampant amounts of violent crime is perfectly allowed within our city! Here, have a seat on our council!"

I agree that Uldah would be the place for a thieves\assassins guild and it would be a secret organization.

I would totally be into this. Not just a second job forked off of Rogue, but as its own class. Assassin could be the job. Hmm. Sorta like a dark reflection of Rogue/Ninja. Lore-wise it doesn't have to be incompatible.

[Kuwagami]

Classes don't get AF and they have crappy stats. We want a Thief job. And Dragoon's only iconic move is jump. Warrior doesn't even have one except maybe multiple attacks. They can be creative.

let's be honest, we can decline multiple types of jumps (as they did). We can hardly decline multiple forms of "flee" (well, stealth will do) or "steal" (steal what anyway ? there is only trash from mobs). I'm all for creativity, but a thief is stealing, and there is nothing to steal in this game. They made more of it and named it rogue, that's just it.

For the record:
Locke: He was a thief. I guess you missed the joke in the beginning of the game. He doesn't want to admit it so he goes by "Treasure Hunter". It was funny. Haha?
Rikku: So they're defined by their limit? I guess Zidane and Yuffie must be Super Saiyans then.
Vaan: He's a young thief who wants to be a sky pirate. Once he gets involved with the plot he becomes more than that. They all do.

Locke : Ilenya answered you
Rikku : Her and Yuffie are false arguments. Every FF7 and every FFX character can learn "steal". Or you're saying that Tidus, wakka, any other... were all thieves too ?
Vaan : I won't get back on him. I suppose everyone has their own way to see the character.

Zidane is too tanky to be a Thief. He's more of an agile Warrior.　But he had Steal and Flee so...

On the other hand, FF9's lore specifically says he is a thief.

>This guy
>Thinks thief turns into ninja in 'all the early final fantasies'
>Thinks thief only have two abilities
>Thinks only one character in 20~ games is a thief

The troll is hard in this one.

stop trolling and prove me wrong ?

=> find an other iconic move besides steal and flee (mug doesn't count, it's an upgrade of steal)
=> FF1 : thief gives ninja
FF3 and FF5 : thief comes from an earlier crystal than ninja, and share similar gimmicks. btw, quote me right next time :

sub-job leading to ninja

not

thief turns into ninja

FF tactics : thief is a necessary step to ninja

[Anapingofness]

Tbh, people are upset because of two main factors.
The name change and the fact that it is only a class.

So yes, as others have said, people would be upset even if they didn't change the name.
Personally, I think people would be less upset if they didn't change the name to Rogue because at least then, SE would have remained 'true' to the FF series lore. In FF games it has always been called Thief.

To those of you who are hoping for a "Thief" job to be added at some point down the line; I wouldn't get your hopes up.
Honestly, I think when it comes down to it that is another reason why people are upset. They know that with the addition of "Rogue" and Ninja, they won't get Thief as a job.
The job would be too similar to Ninja and far too redundant. As far as Thief tanks go... no. Just no. = =;;

Bottom line; people feel strongly about this.
Dismissing their feelings by saying "Oh, just imagine it says Thief in your head." is fairly insulting.
It's equally annoying when people say "Rogue = Thief. It's the same thing". If it was the same thing then people wouldn't be upset by it. Or, if it is the same thing then they shouldn't have changed the name to begin with.

Personally, I was looking forward to them adding Thief. Since they're not, it's really disappointing to me since I was also looking forward to it.

I'll deal with it, it isn't the end of the world.
I certainly won't begrudge those who are happy with the addition of Rogue and Ninja.

[Surian]

It's not the name.

I dont feel people are upset about Thief being called Rogue.

People are upset because they want to play Thief, and not be a Ninja.

And with the current system in place, the only way they can be a Thief is to play Rogue to lv.50 and never "upgrade" to Ninja, which has everything they do but also better stats and more abilities.

So all the people wanting to play Thief are stuck with the weak class. And thus by FFXIV's game mechanics, unwanted by the community.

[Vladislav]

Maybe in Future they will add THF to Rogue , so it will be like Arcanist = sch+smn . Rogue 1st of all it's a class and not job , like Gladiator for PLD , and Thief is actually Job - not a class . So that why they actually able to add it in future . Also Yoshi said Thief guild will not fit current Eorzea , but Job quests we actually take from certain "NPC" who in many cases WAS use job (Exmample Bard , or currently on job while other "citizens of Eorzea not . Adding some lore + some "Old man" NPC who before was greatest Thief may fix the problem
sorry for my eng , was sleepy when spotted the topic

[Phyllo]

Maybe in Future they will add THF to Rogue , so it will be like Arcanist = sch+smn . Rogue 1st of all it's a class and not job , like Gladiator for PLD , and Thief is actually Job

So either you don't watch live letter, or you just didn't red this thread except for the last few page because it already has been stated by yoshida himself that rogue = thief.
They changed the name because of stupid lore reasons but rogue is thief, 100% thief so there won't be a thief job since thief is already the base class for ninja.