I hope this clears up some of the Rogue>Ninja rage

[FelisC]

However, the bottom line is still this: Thief (not Rogue, THIEF) is still not in the game. SE can spout all the logic and reasoning that they want, but until it happens (and perhaps not even then), folks will not be satisfied. Also see: Red Mage.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you worried that the class won't play how you'd want a THF class to play, or is the only problem literally the name of the class?

[MartaDemireux]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you worried that the class won't play how you'd want a THF class to play, or is the only problem literally the name of the class?

I think it's more that people want Thief but Thief can't be a class because it's a staple FF job name therefor Thief needs to be a job with its own AF, job quests, etc.

Rogues focus on poisons.
Ninjas focus on mudras with Rogue's base poisons.
Thieves would need their own gimmick to play differently from Ninja. Unless of course Ninja plays so differently from Rogue that Thief could then just play like Rogue.

I personally would love Thief to be in the game. It could stem from Rogue and become a tank. Thievery is hated afterall. FFXI touched on THF tanking with the addition of enmity manipulation abilities.

Of course Thief could still come as its own job (as a DPS) from another class that uses daggers (or maybe even boomerangs which have been popular Thief weapons in the series) and then play entirely differently. Since Rogue uses "Twinblades" they could easily make a single-handed dagger user. Could call it Scout (the Scouter's Guild could focus on scoping/surveying new areas) or Trickster (the Trickster's Guild could focus on entertainment/slight of hand) and then Thief could branch off either of those concepts to plain ol' thievery. In fact, the removal of daggers from Gladiator's weaponry could be a precursor as there are no signs that the removed dagger models will be reconstituted for use with Rogue/Ninja. This is especially of note with the term "Twinblade" being used and the weaponry we've seen being long, curved mechanical blades (appear to fold) not counting Ninja's Relic weapon. They could focus on laying traps and/or utilize a steal mechanic which doesn't steal actual items but facilitates the use of other abilities. Such as Steal Life could be a self-heal or could give you a charge to use on some support which gradually heals the party (similar to BRD).

Speaking of BRD, Yoshi has once hinted in the past to making Thief as a 2nd job to Archer. That's what his original plan was anyway. And it does make sense historically as Thieves could make good use of bows in many of the games and in some, such as FFT, Thief wasn't even available until you had experience in Archer. Just food for thought.

Edit: Heck Scout/Trickster could combine daggers and boomerangs and use the "Daggerang" (see: "Barp" and "Bowrp")! Fold it out like a boomerang for ranged attacks, collapse it for a pointed tip for melee stabbing attacks. It would work thematically for Scout as a way to distract an enemy temporarily or lure it away to survey the area or the Trickster as a slight of hand trick, throwing your weapon only to have it return to you. The pointed tip when collapsed offers basic utility for each profession in self-defense. Thief would take it further to be a bit dastardly using the hidden weapon for their sneak attacks and the ranged part to distract their enemy before they go pilfering.

[Lemuria]

What's in a name? Everything apparently.

Common arguments I hear:

1) "But Rogue isn't a Thief"
If it plays like Thief, acts like Thief, has all the skills of Thief... it's a Thief. Clinging to the name like a comfort blanket is moot at this point.

2) "I want to play Thief, not Ninja"
I want to play Ranger, not Bard... but you know what, it doesn't make even the slightest bit of difference since all of my Archer skills carry forwards. The same goes for Rogue's to Ninjas, so you won't be losing anything. Dumb argument..

3) "They should add Thief as a new job crystal"
Perhaps in the fullness of time they will, but I ask what purpose it would serve? If it's a new job then it needs to bring something to the Rogue's skillset which wasn't there before. That means making Rogue into a non-thief which would only anger and upset more people. After all, if you have your principal skill set already from Rogue, then the job is a bit redundant.

Let's be honest people, the only real difference between Thief and Rogue is in your own heads

[Clicked]

Let's be honest people, the only real difference between Thief and Rogue is in your own heads

1) Final Fantasy is based on recurring motifs. They are certain NPCs (Biggs/Wedge/Cid), a heavy emphasis on crystals, variations of the same spell conventions, and jobs. Motifs are CRITICAL in Final Fantasy because otherwise the games would have nothing in common at all.

2) Ninjas and Thieves are similar and in fact they are related. Ninjas are more evasive, and they mix ninjutsu, melee damage, and throwing whereas Thieves are more focused on treasures and loot, and they have ways to FLEE when things go badly. Other than that, every FF Thief has their own play style. It's a diverse role but with its own set of recurring motifs.

3) They get creative in every game where there is a Thief. They appear in many forms. This has never been a problem before.

[Surian]

I dont see how point 2 in the OP would not be a possibility.

*Rogue>Ninja and Thief=X Why? Adding two DPS jobs from the same class wouldn't really work since the DPS>Tank/Healer ratio is already high. DPS already have long queue times because of this as well...

It wouldnt add more people playing DPS, it would just further divide the amount of people that will play Ninja (pseudo-thief) now, due to not having another option, among Ninja and Thief.

i.e. out of a 1000 people who will take up Ninja as their main now, maybe 600 will take up Thief as their Main if they had the option and the remainder of the 400 would take Ninja. Outside of one or two people who dislike ninja with a pasion and wont play it, but maybe will play Thief, the number of DPS players it adds to the game remain relatively the same.

Let's be honest people, the only real difference between Thief and Rogue is in your own heads

Outside of the fact that CLASSES are inheritly weaker than JOBS. Rogue being a class, it misses out on the stat bonuses that job crystals give. It will also have a reduced number of abilities available on it, abilities which Ninja gets on top of their own job.

It's like the current PLD vs. WAR fight. Paladin (Rogue) has abilities, Warrior (Ninja) has those same abilities as well as it's own unique effects on top of it, as well as more power. Does it stop people from playing PLD (Rogue) opposed to switching to WAR (Ninja) for the extra power and skills? No, some people simply dont want to be a WAR (Ninja). But this doesnt change the fact that one is significantly stronger than the other due to more/better ability effects and better stats, taking (after 2.1) the exact same amount of damage.

[Gaddes]

I'd love for you to prove that all of those lovely thieves in previous FF lore were not also Rogues.

Again, my original post was not even referring to rogues or the rogues vs thief thing, but rather my frustration with their excuses that a Thief character "wouldn't work" in the context of this game, followed by an example of how the writing could allow for it to work in the game's world.

But anyway... unrelated to what I was actually talking about, if you want to go ahead and call all the thieves in past FF games "rogues that steal" as you seem so hell-bent on doing, knock yourself out. They're still classified as thieves. And for those saying that a Thief Guild wouldn't be allowed or whatever, my assumption was always that the Thief Guild would be a secret one, not like the other guilds that are out in the open. Maybe a secret password/code/etc to tell thieves apart from regular folk, a secret Thief Guild hideout that's hidden away, that sort of thing. Granted I played a lot of the Quest for Glory series back in the day, and that series' Thieves Guild always was a secretive, elite and shady organization. I know people mentioned Limsa, but Ul'Dah actually seems well suited for Thieves, considering the mass amounts of money circulating in that place.

[Rednight]

You can still be a THIEF as a ROGUE, you just RP stealing stuff.

I doubt this is an option, because in the end "you're either a Ninja or screw you"...

When was the last time you seen a GLA or ACN or any class in an instance after Lv.30 (with the exception of a few clueless newbies or MRD in PvP) ?

You just don't play classes, you play jobs in this game.

[Kuwagami]

I don't think Rogue's Guild would be any better.
According to the definition:
rogue
rōg/Submit
noun
1. a dishonest or unprincipled man.
"you are a rogue and an embezzler"
synonyms: scoundrel, villain, miscreant, reprobate, rascal, good-for-nothing, ne'er-do-well, wretch; informalrat, dog, louse, crook; datedcad; archaicblackguard, picaroon, knave
"a rogue without ethics"

in fact the name in japanese means "user of daggers" (it's the same in French : "surineur", which is an old word for dagger user). People are just overreacting because their dagger user isn't called "thief" in english.

Thief FTW because Locke FTW!

What does Locke have to do with Thieves? He's a Treasure Hunter.

I've been beaten on this


inb4 yuffie : she's not a thief either.

1) Final Fantasy is based on recurring motifs. They are certain NPCs (Biggs/Wedge/Cid), a heavy emphasis on crystals, variations of the same spell conventions, and jobs. Motifs are CRITICAL in Final Fantasy because otherwise the games would have nothing in common at all.

2) Ninjas and Thieves are similar and in fact they are related. Ninjas are more evasive, and they mix ninjutsu, melee damage, and throwing whereas Thieves are more focused on treasures and loot, and they have ways to FLEE when things go badly. Other than that, every FF Thief has their own play style. It's a diverse role but with its own set of recurring motifs.

3) They get creative in every game where there is a Thief. They appear in many forms. This has never been a problem before.

2) It has always been "Thief becomes Ninja", even since FFI... In FFXIV, we have "Rogue becomes Ninja" and "Rogue is Thief with a lore-wise name", so "Thief becomes Ninja". Please explain what was your point again ?

3) I'd like to hear your ideas on how a stealing job would fit in a game were loot from mobs is trash and basically useless (read here, top-end gear is untradable and not craftable). You'd have a useless job. Better make is a poison based class (oh, that's what rogue is) which leads to a useful job.




I wish people could consider game's mechanics before asking dumb things

[Elven]

This only makes sense if you think thief is going to be a future job otherwise no interest beyond it's their game and that's what they're going with.

[LineageRazor]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you worried that the class won't play how you'd want a THF class to play, or is the only problem literally the name of the class?

Don't misunderstand me - I'm not personally interested in playing Thief (or Rogue or Ninja for that matter!).

The reason I believe that people are going to rage about the situation is that Thief is one of the iconic professions in Final Fantasy - there's one in very nearly every FF game. It needs to be a JOB, not a CLASS - the same treatment given to other iconic FF professions (such as White Mage, Monk, Black Mage, and Warrior). The situation would be WORSE, not BETTER if Rogue was named Thief instead, as there would then be little or no hope of Thief ever being added as a job.

Also, as a Job, not a Class, the whole argument about whether a guild would be tolerated in the cities is completely irrelevant. Does White Mage have a guild? No. Conjurer does. Does Monk have a guild? No. Pugilist does. There would be no Thieves' Guild - there would be some NPC hiding in the wilderness somewhere that you go to to learn the ways of the Thief. This, in fact, is still a possible future scenario - it remains to be seen whether SE will buckle under all the whining.