Theory: The Primal invasion of Ul'dah

[Morningstar1337]

A week ago the 2.3 trailer was seen by several people. a clip of said trailer showed Nanamo Ul Namo, the figurehead sultana of Ul'dah. There was a thread about this in the general discussion board (I kinda felt it'd fit better here since it deals with story and such). There I posted a theory here but it was mostly ignored. So I decided to make a thread for this theory to expand upon it and ask for your opinions.

My theory is that Ul'dah has been invaded, the invaders summoned their Primal and he is going on a tempering spree around the Thanlan capital. From there I can see two possible scenarios:

• The first of which is the other half of my initial theory. Unlike the Warriors of Light and Ascilla/Minfilia, Nanamo and Raubahn do not have the Echo, thus they are susceptible for the brainwashing process commonly referred to by the fans and Immortal Flames as "tempering". I believe that by the time of the clip she was already tempered. The exact context of that scene is her using what little freewill she has left to plead for the PC or Raubahn to leave or kill her before she gets them tempered or killed. The Syndicate plays a role in this because they could try to profit off the war or a Theocratic Ul'dah (Think if Scientology got a city-state).
  • On a side note: A tempered Nanamo can still be of use to the syndicate if they ally with the primal in question, by virtue being more easily manipulated and in turn be used to manipulated the populace. The title may change to something like "priestess". But as far as the average persion may be concerned that may the only noticeable change on the surface.
• Another possibility that instead of Nanamo, it would be Raubahn that gets the tempering treatment. The reason being unlike Nanamo, Raubahn actually has some power by virtue of leading the Immortal Flames and thus the only known military in Thanalan. Or he could have simply been killed in an effort to stop the primal. In ether case the context would be her mourning her loss.
  • In fact it's possible for all of the above to come true. Primal attacks Raubahn gets tempered, Nanamo thinks he died, Raubahn comes, Nanamo is overjoyed to see him alive, unaware of the tempering and then she gets tempered.

Now for the "who"

• Ifrit: The likely candidate due to the Amal'ja's proximity and struggle with Ul'dah. This would be the end of their crusades. With them taking the capital and tempering the sultana and at least a good chunk of the population.
• Shiva: Crazy huh? But the core of my theory (listed above) is just as crazy. Anyway. In this forum, there is some speculation that Ishgard's archbishop is tempered by Shiva and that she is the more manipulative sort of villain. Who to say that she won't try to expand her power by having not one, but two theocracies under her control (plus the dragons, yes there's speculation that she's the patron primal of the dragons). As for the how. Remember that mysterious Elezen woman from the trailer? That's ether her using an extensive glamor or a mole traveling to Ul'dah to corrupt form within. After all there's already corruption from the people of Ul'Dah and the Amal'ja's informant was in the Immortal Flames.

Now for the Warriors of Light and the Syndicate; two key players in this potential tragedy of Ul'dah:

• We all know that the Syndicate are the real government in the city, with Nanamo being a figurehead. Their reason for aiding the primals in their tempering of Ul'dah as explained earlier in this post is that they see great profit to be made in making Ul'dah a theocracy. They may or may not be tempered themselves but they will use the resulting strife and conflict to further line their pockets.
• The Warriors of Light (especially those that picked a class from Ul'Dah or maybe joined the Flames) would had been a trusted friend and ally to Nanamo. So she would have no shortage of grief were s/he to perish. Alternative the Warrior would become her confidant in the event of Raubahn's demise or tempering.

I also have one related theory:

• If Raubahn's dead and or the Syndicate dethrones Nanamo, she will take charge of the Flames. It's possible that Nanamo and Raubahn would co-run the Flames.

So what are your thoughts and opinions on my wall of text?

[Saikou]

I could see them killing off Raubahn for shock value. He's a real thorn in the more self-interested syndicate member's sides. His being gone would remove from Nanamo what little power she had. I could totally see her taking command of the Immortal Flames in order to prevent the ominously foreshadowed revolution. And we Flames would rally to our Empress's side. Upheaval in Ul'dah provides an avenue for answering the last major question in that city remaining from 1.0: Who killed Niellefresne? That man sought the forbidden power of necromancy, which if discovered would have made him a great threat to all of the Syndicate.

I do not believe Nanamo would take control of the Flames with Raubahn still around. He's got much more experience. But if they off Raubahn to give us a kick in the teeth right before shit gets real with Shiva and Ishgard, I could see it happening. It would be the only way to prevent The Syndicate from carrying out a true revolution. It's kind of hard to unseat a ruler who has the support of the army.

[Morningstar1337]

snip

I understand that. That's I listed it as a possible side theory. In fact I said it's possible that Nanamo and Raubahn could co-run the flames, but I did not say it would happen.

As for the last sentence said army has a history with corruption and some members could be bribed to revoke their loyalty to the sultana.

So what do you think of the main theory (the rest of the post)?

[Enkidoh]

I think that is extremely unlikely, given the fact it's clearly shown that tempering isn't a widespread practice (the amalj'aa have to resort to subterfuge by kidnapping easy targets out in the field, and then have to take them to the Bowl of Embers for the tempering process to be done - Ifrit simply isn't going around the countryside tempering the population wholesale because it's just not possible - Primals require an enormous amount of crystals to keep them anchored in the corporeal realm).

Then there's the fact that Nanamo rarely leaves the confines of the city - as Sultana she's protected by her thick palace walls and the Sultansworn as well (not even her own subjects get a chance to so much as glimpse her usually). Raubahn has a greater risk to be tempered, but again, I think that's highly unlikely, given the fact he's one the leader of the Immoral Flames and therefore has contractual immortality.

The fact is, she could have been crying for any number of reasons, and which most likely will be revealed to be something mundane in the grand scheme of things. Personally, I think it's actually an internal struggle taking place - possibly Lord Lorolito is finally making a move on power in the Syndicate and thus setting the Monetarists against those loyal to the crown (which sadly is only Raubahn and Aldeji-Taledji). But I guess we'll see.

[Xmbei]

Ya, i myself dont hold much to the tempering primal in Uldah either. Doesnt make sense, in any part of the story we have seen. I think she probably got notice of syndicate revolution just then turns crying to rauhbahn and the player with the threat. The syndicate has no profit to wholesell uldah to a primal especially the beastman would find it better to temper the syndicate and they lose their profit and free will. Not something the syndicate would do for profit, they are shrewd businessmen to just hand the city to beastman and primals.

Example: you dont see the mafia going to the yakuza or triad for business due to risk of being betrayed.

Edit: but you have a good mind to theorize its fun to do so don't think I am berating your idea. It just doesnt make sense to me.

[Morningstar1337]

I think that is extremely unlikely, given the fact it's clearly shown that tempering isn't a widespread practice (the amalj'aa have to resort to subterfuge by kidnapping easy targets out in the field, and then have to take them to the Bowl of Embers for the tempering process to be done - Ifrit simply isn't going around the countryside tempering the population wholesale because it's just not possible - Primals require an enormous amount of crystals to keep them anchored in the corporeal realm).

I never said that it would be Ifrit. I just stated it as the most likely possibility but that's becuase they were the closest and have a motive. I also listed Shiva as another Primal and gave some more in depth reasoning

Then there's the fact that Nanamo rarely leaves the confines of the city - as Sultana she's protected by her thick palace walls and the Sultansworn as well (not even her own subjects get a chance to so much as glimpse her usually). Raubahn has a greater risk to be tempered, but again, I think that's highly unlikely, given the fact he's one the leader of the Immoral Flames and therefore has contractual immortality.

You have a point, though in the event of a beastman invasion chaos would ensue and people such as spies (remember the Immortal Flames and Ungust?) would easily use the opportunity to kidnap the sultansworn or have the invasion be a diversion to that end.

Also you assume that the Syndicate won't try to pull strings to weaken whatever bodyguard detail Nanamo may have. Raubahn is tough but he is still one man and I think the Syndicate have enough Gil and power to make any security detail vanish and hire insiders to lead the invaders right to her.

As for Raubahn. I think Plot Armor is the more likely reason, also tempering doesn't kill.

The fact is, she could have been crying for any number of reasons, and which most likely will be revealed to be something mundane in the grand scheme of things. Personally, I think it's actually an internal struggle taking place - possibly Lord Lorolito is finally making a move on power in the Syndicate and thus setting the Monetarists against those loyal to the crown (which sadly is only Raubahn and Aldeji-Taledji). But I guess we'll see.

I think this may be part of the bigger picture involving the Primals. remember we don't know much about the Syndicate. They are an Omniscient Council of Vagueness and all we know is that the are businessmen (or organized criminals, or both) and the actualy leading politics of Ul'dah. for all we know they would probably see a theocratic Ul'dah to be more profitable (it's not like using religion/cults for monetary gain is unheard of) or think a war would boost their power and business.

Ya, i myself dont hold much to the tempering primal in Uldah either. Doesnt make sense, in any part of the story we have seen. I think she probably got notice of syndicate revolution just then turns crying to rauhbahn and the player with the threat. The syndicate has no profit to wholesell uldah to a primal especially the beastman would find it better to temper the syndicate and they lose their profit and free will. Not something the syndicate would do for profit, they are shrewd businessmen to just hand the city to beastman and primals.

Example: you dont see the mafia going to the yakuza or triad for business due to risk of being betrayed.
Edit: but you have a good mind to theorize its fun to do so don't think I am berating your idea. It just doesnt make sense to me.

Thank you. I know it's is insane enough for me to get a darksteel foil hat and in fact probably relies on other theories like the "Shiva is manipulative" one.

In fact you could say Shiva is the only possible choice to invade Ul'dah because the Ifrit idea has been disproven by Enkidoh and we know as much about her as we do about the Syndicate (read: not a whole lot.) so for all we know she could be manipulating the syndicate to hand over the city to her beastmen (or maybe Ishgard)

[Bombast]

The problem is that your whole theory is based on a single cut scene taken without context.

1. The cut scene is, more realistically, either about Ramuh (Who, it seems the trailer is implying/some of the preview text, is having some sort of wide spread effect over Eorzea, rather then just messing with the Shroud), or the events leading up to Frontline (Which, at least from the trailer, seems to be started by Ul'dah trying to find a place to dump all these damn refugees).

2. Raubahn is a significant character with a massive fan following. While his position as a 'dual leader' (Redundant in a way) makes him susceptible to death, its something that's not going to happen in a patch. Raubahn's death is Expansion material.

While it's conceivable, this is definitely Wild Mass Guessing.

[Icecylee]

I'd sooner bet on ascians than I would primals, if we're talking seemingly internal conflict between organizations within a city-state that's actually due to outside influences. They can possess people, after all.

[Morningstar1337]

The problem is that your whole theory is based on a single cut scene taken without context.

1. The cut scene is, more realistically, either about Ramuh (Who, it seems the trailer is implying/some of the preview text, is having some sort of wide spread effect over Eorzea, rather then just messing with the Shroud), or the events leading up to Frontline (Which, at least from the trailer, seems to be started by Ul'dah trying to find a place to dump all these damn refugees).

Of the two I'd say Frontlines are more likely. Unless Ramuh is been actually as cunning we all expect Shiva to be but that seems to be even more nonsensical than my theory.

2. Raubahn is a significant character with a massive fan following. While his position as a 'dual leader' (Redundant in a way) makes him susceptible to death, its something that's not going to happen in a patch. Raubahn's death is Expansion material.

While it's conceivable, this is definitely Wild Mass Guessing.

What can I say. I'd been a troper long before I've been a XIV player...

I'd sooner bet on ascians than I would primals, if we're talking seemingly internal conflict between organizations within a city-state that's actually due to outside influences. They can possess people, after all.

Just thought I'd point out that they also have knowledge of the summonings (in fact they taught some Ala Mhigo kids the ritual).

Thought it would be interesting to see the Ascians try to control Raubahn and/or Nanamo. They could even serve as the "manipulative instigator" role (Since Shiva actually being manipulative if unconfirmed yet)

[Saikou]

Spoilers for everything. Because when is there not? =3

This is all very interesting, but I see The Syndicate more as a Not So Omniscient Council of Bickering. This is quite possibly circa 1.0, but still relevant for any discussion regarding The Flames and its relationship to The Syndicate. There is a lot that is not known about the members of The Syndicate. What we do know is that they are not necessarily a united front. The Monetarists did not go to the Syndicate meeting with a plan to write off the Domans. This is why Lolorito actually had to give a speech that justified barring them which supported the interests of The Monetarists while still sounding real. Recall his little history lesson about the rule of law and how Nanamo had chosen to handle the Ala Mihgan refugees. Some of the Syndicate members actually seemed to be weighing their options, the Hellsguard owner of the Mineral Concern in particular.

Now someone might remind me of each Syndicate member's claim to fame and therefore his agenda:

We know Lolorito is self-aggrandizing and politically savvy, would probably see himself as Emperor if it were possible.

The Prince puts on a benevolent face, but he is the one who would bring revolution... Therefore, I do not believe he can be trusted either.

I know the least about the other 3:

Prior Dewlala would stand to gain the most from Ul'dah becoming a Theocracy, especially if the internal power structure of Ul'dah's religious orders remained unchanged.

Director Eolande... I know next to nothing about this character. He runs what is essentially a hospital and a research lab and profits greatly by Alchemy. I suppose war might be good for business in his case. Whatever his views, the physicians within The Phonistery in 1.0 seemed to abide by "do no harm." As with the rest of Ul'dah, however, the Phonistery charged handsomely for medical services rendered - even in a life-or-death situation.

With Chief Foreman Fyrgeiss, I don't believe he'd collude with any of the others to do anything shady. Conflict within the city has been bad for his business in the past, and I believe this is the reason that he ultimately sided with Lolorito against letting in the Domans. They may have supplemented his workforce... or they may have shut down his operation entirely. Ul'dah initially rose to prominent wealth initially due to mining. As the keeper of that legacy and simply due to how his business operates, I don't see him wanting to rock the boat. If The Syndicate split over a power play brought forth by the Prince, I believe this guy is the most likely to side with the Royalists in the end.

Lolorito, Teledji, and Dewlala seem the most likely to foment revolution as, based on what little we know, these 3 have the most to gain from it. Teledji has the blood to become Emperor, Dwlala could become High Priest, and Lolorito would be their Tywin Lannister.

I believe that Fyrgeiss would side with Raubahn and the Empress for purely practical reasons.

I don't know enough about Eolande, he's a wild card as far as I am concerned.

Someone please correct me if I have gotten any information about these people wrong. Thankyou.

As Raubahn had to convince The Monetarists that war was good for business in 1.0, I don't believe any of the members of The Syndicate have this mentality. I don't think anyone has Plot Armor, either. Anyone Can Die and A Fate Worse Than Death have already been invoked.

The whole reason I'm going down this rabbit hole is because I believe that its possible, even likely, that SE would make Shiva the manipulative or seductive one that walks among us unseen. Why? Because every primal has been pretty straightforward in how he or she operates up to this point. It would be a pleasant plot twist for Shiva to be smarter than the average bear, tempering a key person here and a key person there. Giving the right people the idea that they can attain what they want if they follow her. And the tempering would be so subtle... A primal with a soft sell like this is, heretofore, unheard of.

Then again, it's entirely possible that Silver Elf Chick is just a new NPC of import being introduced at this time. It is also possible that some other event could cause Nanamo to cry. Like, I dunno, perhaps a riot by the working class? Or any number of other things that people have mentioned above.

I did not mean to offend. But I still do not think it likely for The Sultana to leave the city unless: A) The city was no longer safe for her. Or B) Her presence was vital wherever The Flames would be fighting AND she had someone trustworthy to sit at the table and monitor the actions of the other Syndicate members while she was gone. I can think of a few.

I'm going to repeat that I'm not so very certain that every character, even popular ones with plot importance, are necessarily safe. As far as we know, patch 2.4 will be the last major update before the first expansion. Making the fight personal to 2/5ths of the Eorzean city states - personal to the surviving leaders who are his peers - and making it personal to The Warriors of Light who fought and bled with him at Cartenau. This may seem like a crazy notion, but you may have seen this place in Northern Thanalan called "Raubahn's Push." And it's on what is essentially a battlefield. I've always kind of considered that a death flag for him. Rags to riches self-made man. Death flag. Outsider who gains the trust and respect of his new people. Death flag. His speeches before The Flames and The People almost always involve him talking about future prosperity for the nation. Death flag. I'm blanking on the others, but there you have it.]revolution[/URL]... Therefore, I do not believe he can be trusted either.

I know the least about the other 3:

Prior Dewlala would stand to gain the most from Ul'dah becoming a Theocracy, especially if the internal power structure of Ul'dah's religious orders remained unchanged.

Director Eolande... I know next to nothing about this character. He runs what is essentially a hospital and a research lab and profits greatly by Alchemy. I suppose war might be good for business in his case. Whatever his views, the physicians within The Phonistery in 1.0 seemed to abide by "do no harm." As with the rest of Ul'dah, however, the Phonistery charged handsomely for medical services rendered - even in a life-or-death situation.

With Chief Foreman Fyrgeiss, I don't believe he'd collude with any of the others to do anything shady. Conflict within the city has been bad for his business in the past, and I believe this is the reason that he ultimately sided with Lolorito against letting in the Domans. They may have supplemented his workforce... or they may have shut down his operation entirely. Ul'dah initially rose to prominent wealth initially due to mining. As the keeper of that legacy and simply due to how his business operates, I don't see him wanting to rock the boat. If The Syndicate split over a power play brought forth by the Prince, I believe this guy is the most likely to side with the Royalists in the end.

Lolorito, Teledji, and Dewlala seem the most likely to foment revolution as, based on what little we know, these 3 have the most to gain from it. Teledji has the blood to become Emperor, Dwlala could become High Priest, and Lolorito would be their Tywin Lannister.

I believe that Fyrgeiss would side with Raubahn and the Empress for purely practical reasons.

I don't know enough about Eolande, he's a wild card as far as I am concerned.

Someone please correct me if I have gotten any information about these people wrong. Thankyou.

As Raubahn had to convince The Monetarists that war was good for business in 1.0, I don't believe any of the members of The Syndicate have this mentality. I don't think anyone has Plot Armor, either. Anyone Can Die and A Fate Worse Than Death have already been invoked.

The whole reason I'm going down this rabbit hole is because I believe that its possible, even likely, that SE would make Shiva the manipulative or seductive one that walks among us unseen. Why? Because every primal has been pretty straightforward in how he or she operates up to this point. It would be a pleasant plot twist for Shiva to be smarter than the average bear, tempering a key person here and a key person there. Giving the right people the idea that they can attain what they want if they follow her. And the tempering would be so subtle... A primal with a soft sell like this is, heretofore, unheard of.

Then again, it's entirely possible that Silver Elf Chick is just a new NPC of import being introduced at this time. It is also possible that some other event could cause Nanamo to cry. Like, I dunno, perhaps a riot by the working class? Or any number of other things that people have mentioned above.

I did not mean to offend. But I still do not think it likely for The Sultana to leave the city unless: A) The city was no longer safe for her. Or B) Her presence was vital wherever The Flames would be fighting AND she had someone trustworthy to sit at the table and monitor the actions of the other Syndicate members while she was gone. I can think of a few.

I'm going to repeat that I'm not so very certain that every character, even popular ones with plot importance, are necessarily safe. As far as we know, patch 2.4 will be the last major update before the first expansion. Making the fight personal to 2/5ths of the Eorzean city states - personal to the surviving leaders who are his peers - and making it personal to The Warriors of Light who fought and bled with him at Cartenau. This may seem like a crazy notion, but you may have seen this place in Northern Thanalan called "Raubahn's Push." And it's on what is essentially a battlefield. I've always kind of considered that a death flag for him. Rags to riches self-made man. Death flag. Outsider who gains the trust and respect of his new people. Death flag. His speeches before The Flames and The People almost always involve him talking about future prosperity for the nation. Death flag. I'm blanking on the others, but there you have it.