Future of Coil in DF

[Ooshima]

Even in it's nerfed state there is plenty to learn in T1-5. The notion that people learn nothing with it nerfed and with the Echo is quite frankly, a bunch of BS. It's still harder content than anything that comes before it, maybe with the exception of the EX primals. Just because you see bad players doesn't mean they're eternally stuck in some state of being terrible, without ever learning anything.

Well, if there are so much things to learn, we should be seeing a higher percentage of players clearing Turn 5. Which in fact, we aren't.

Yes, T1-5 are still harder than any content around, maybe except Titan EX. But I'm looking at the finer details here. In Turn 1, I've seen lots of players who doesn't bother learning how to anticipate when High Voltage will come even though it is easy to tell, and get prepared to silence it. Nope, these lot of players don't learn nor bother to learn and just ignore it, leaving it to the poor healer to raid heal and Esuna the paralysis away from him/herself and the tank.

I have seen tanks who doesn't know how to effectively rotate their CDs on Turn 1 and 4 and causes suddenly and drastic drop in their HP. Bless them that they have echo to beef up their HP and many times, experienced healers to heal them back (I've got to thank Echo for this too). I've been mostly playing as a WHM in the Echo'd 1st coil for 30-50 games because things like Healing Choker and Earring refused to drop even after playing 20 times of each of the turns. Have seen a lot of these players who are simply LOL and when you tried to teach them or give them a tips or two, they still derp much or even reply you things like "having access to silence and knowing how is another story", which aren't I giving you tips to know how? You should be learning how YOURSELF by the way, it is your own initiative. Just because me and my healer partner can heal them through doesn't mean that they should continue playing in this manner. Which is essentially what I call learning nothing out of it.

IDK about you - you doesn't seem to have stepped into 2nd coil yet. Maybe when the day you do and experience the difference between 2nd coil and 1st coil, you might come to understanding that 2nd coil will well destroy these players if they carry such attitude and play style over. And what you will get is more QQ about how tough 2nd coil and what not because they haven't been learning the proper techniques.

Those groups that have cleared the 1st coil without Echo (and even doing T2 rot passing method) are still struggling with T7 and some T8. I don't expect much from groups who just barely survive the 1st coil with Echo.

Echo is just there, provided by SE to push people through content. Note the word push. It is to merely lessen the difficulty to pass the gate that gated them previously, so that they wouldn't complaint or feel lagging behind, and let them have the access to the new content in the new patches (afterall, they are paying customers). Note the word again, letting them have access. All in all Echo is mainly pushing them and letting them have access to new contents. But Echo is unable to prepare them for the new content in its current difficulty unlike the other players who cleared the old content without Echo do. The un-Echoed 1st coil and Titan/Ifrit EX really taught players a lot of things (and note, in i90 and lesser gears), especially with similar mechanics appearing in 2nd coil and Levi EX, these players are actually better managing them.

This includes me. I greatly thank especially Titan EX. I started as a dragoon and I'm the kind of bad dragoon people would flame me all over. But things like Titan HM and EM taught me a great deal about dodging, anticipating, and pushing myself to deal greater DPS to the point that I've become more proficient in what I do, being able to sell runs etc.

[blowfin]

snip

Terrible players are one thing, and you're cherry picking examples to suit your argument, but stating that people don't learn through experience when they're assisted by Echo/Nerfs is something else altogether. You NEED to learn strategy to get past Titan EX and T5, unless you get carried of course, but we're talking about DF. So what if they hit the wall with Coil 2, that's what it's been designed for. So what if echo helps them get through content without it being on the razor's edge, that's what it's there for. It's no different than us hitting Coil1 for the first time last year and struggling against the learning curve. How easy was everything up until Coil 1? Pretty trivial right? This is the same pattern.

You should be learning how YOURSELF by the way, it is your own initiative. Just because me and my healer partner can heal them through doesn't mean that they should continue playing in this manner. Which is essentially what I call learning nothing out of it.

Yeah well in that case you're actually carrying them, and impacting their education by being vastly overgeared for the content. You could help them learn faster by under gearing, if you're actually that concerned about it.

[Ooshima]

I'm not exactly that concerned about them, to be honest. Affects my selling business eventually, if no bad players who am I going to sell Primal EX and Coil 1 to? *chuckles*

But just putting another side of the story to the table. It isn't mine or your responsibility to make them a better player, that motivation should have come within them. But of cos if they eventually does improve and become a good player, I'm of course happy to see more good end-game players to play with.

[blowfin]

I'm not exactly that concerned about them, to be honest. Affects my selling business eventually, if no bad players who am I going to sell Primal EX and Coil 1 to? *chuckles*

But just putting another side of the story to the table. It isn't mine or your responsibility to make them a better player, that motivation should have come within them. But of cos if they eventually does improve and become a good player, I'm of course happy to see more good end-game players to play with.

Haha, so on one hand you're concerned that the Echo helps people get through content without learning much, while at the same time you're carrying groups and ensuring they learn even less... there's a word for that kind of double standard.

[Ooshima]

Haha, so on one hand you're concerned that the Echo helps people get through content without learning much, while at the same time you're carrying groups and ensuring they learn even less... there's a word for that kind of double standard.

I think you simply took me as concerned. My original statement was that Echo is a good and bad thing, because it makes people clear content but bad at the same time because bad players stay bad. You were the one who started with people have plenty to learn despite the nerfed state which I simply drawn examples and reasoning why it isn't, and they aren't going to be able to learn as much as pre-nerf. Some doesn't even bother to learn properly anyways. I ended with a brief touch on how I actually benefited from doing the unnerfed content and suggested that players might want to look forward to the same if they really wanted to learn more stuff.

If by any means because of the above statement/advise you believe that I am truly concerned, very concerned, then you have probably misunderstood me. I'm just pointing out that at current state Echo pushes people through content with the risk that they aren't learning much. It is a point raised, not a concern raised. I don't think anyone would be unhappy if like 90% of the player base are awesome players. It may mean less income for us but I'm sure there will be other kind of fun with these great players. But reality isn't - and thus we don't turn down the gil either. Simply being realistic and practical.