Cristal Tower 2 useless?

[Welsper59]

If there was content challenging enough to use it in sure. Sadly anything outside of coil2 is tuned for like ilvl 70. Being already 20-30 levels over the content there really isn't much room for doing it any faster. Already have times when stuff dies too fast for cooldowns. Any faster and I'll be doing the same overall because of having less cooldown burn cycles.

You're referring to (partly) CT right? Regardless of what ilvl intent it has behind it, CT will never be seen as "challenging" in the same light as Coil. Since its release, it was never designed to be difficult content in to the same degree. Likewise, anything else outside of Coil is never going to be on that same level (at least in the near future). Maybe they'll eventually release a Brutal version of some 4-man dungeons, or a challenge mode of sorts that caps ilvl while raising difficulty. But as far as CT is concerned, which is the point of topic, it's definitely the wrong source to be looking at for challenge (besides overcoming your fellow players).

I'm looking forward to the probable crying to come with Brutal Coil2, and hoping that if it ends up being practically unbeatable (maybe due to higher ilvl needs), it relatively stays that way lol. Of course, if a fully BiS geared raid with optimal job setup isn't capable for months, then maybe a small nerf is needed... or maybe they'll leave it alone as higher ilvl gear is made available, which probably would result in Brutal modes being beaten.

[Zarzak]

You're referring to (partly) CT right? Regardless of what ilvl intent it has behind it, CT will never be seen as "challenging" in the same light as Coil. Since its release, it was never designed to be difficult content in to the same degree. Likewise, anything else outside of Coil is never going to be on that same level (at least in the near future). Maybe they'll eventually release a Brutal version of some 4-man dungeons, or a challenge mode of sorts that caps ilvl while raising difficulty. But as far as CT is concerned, which is the point of topic, it's definitely the wrong source to be looking at for challenge (besides overcoming your fellow players).

I'm looking forward to the probable crying to come with Brutal Coil2, and hoping that if it ends up being practically unbeatable (maybe due to higher ilvl needs), it relatively stays that way lol. Of course, if a fully BiS geared raid with optimal job setup isn't capable for months, then maybe a small nerf is needed... or maybe they'll leave it alone as higher ilvl gear is made available, which probably would result in Brutal modes being beaten.

Not exactly. I mean sure CT is included but I was mostly responding to Ehayte's statement about CT gear being useful for alts to do things with friends (which since these can't include Coil 2 must be hard dungeons, primals, and Coil 1). All of which are already FAR below the gear all our alts should have been in for months by now. Being in ilvl 100 or 110 gear isn't going to really help.


IMO Brutal coil is fairly worthless. While I welcome the challenge the reality is were going to beat on it for a couple nights then go do normal to get our loots for the week since they share lockouts.

Now if brutal was a 16 man version on a separate lockout and a higher difficulty level... HELL YES.


Really I really hope they DON'T put in "raid" 4 man content. Raid gear is already accessible without actually raiding (come CT2). It doesn't need to get worse. I just hope they add in MORE raid content. 4 events that are only 8 people is not near enough. If your farming them its less than an hour of content a week.

[Welsper59]

Not exactly. I mean sure CT is included but I was mostly responding to Ehayte's statement about CT gear being useful for alts to do things with friends (which since these can't include Coil 2 must be hard dungeons, primals, and Coil 1). All of which are already FAR below the gear all our alts should have been in for months by now. Being in ilvl 100 or 110 gear isn't going to really help.


IMO Brutal coil is fairly worthless. While I welcome the challenge the reality is were going to beat on it for a couple nights then go do normal to get our loots for the week since they share lockouts.

Now if brutal was a 16 man version on a separate lockout and a higher difficulty level... HELL YES.

Ahh I see. Well, to be fair, the game is barely past its infancy stage as far as expectations go. Some might say it's still in it. We've seen more (additional) content release in this game than practically any of its MMORPG predecessors in the short time. They still need to focus on bringing out the new content that is designed for the player base as a whole, before they can focus on adjusting the difficulty of new release goods for the much more dedicated/hardcore base.

I highly doubt we're going to see much, or any, 16man content in the near future. Even in games like WoW, putting together 25 people is next to impossible for the majority of players outside of their LFR system. Heck, it's difficult to put together a team of 10 players even... we see difficulty in putting together a dedicated 8-player team in this game. While that might be unfortunate for some, you can't really fault them on the lack of focus for this sort of content just yet.

I will also say that they sort of shot themselves in the foot with the quick ilvl jumps, when it comes to this difficulty want. I suppose that's to be expected though if that was their intent (to essentially make the player quickly overpower content and have that empowered feel).

[Zarzak]

I highly doubt we're going to see much, or any, 16man content in the near future. Even in games like WoW, putting together 25 people is next to impossible for the majority of players outside of their LFR system. Heck, it's difficult to put together a team of 10 players even... we see difficulty in putting together a dedicated 8-player team in this game. While that might be unfortunate for some, you can't really fault them on the lack of focus for this sort of content just yet.

It is harder to put together a 8 man team than it is for a 30-40-50 man team. And I will explain why.

EQ. 15 year old game. 54 man raids are NO problem.

1. Raids tuned for more people are easier to do a man or 2 down

---example with our current setup say 1 dps misses. Even if we could zone in with 7 realistically each of the 3 remaining increasing their dps by 33% to account for the missing 4th is unrealistic. Now lets look at having 8 dps and 1 missing. each only has to increase their dps by 14%. The larger the raid the easier it is to account for people missing.

2. The larger the raid the more realistic it is to have a bench*

---With current 8 man raids having even a 3 man bench (a tank, dps, and healer) isn't very realistic.. because well that's almost half of ANOTHER raid group.


*really we would need MORE raids too though to have a bench because asking someone to rotate out with the benched player for 1 event when theres only 4 is a lot harder than saying "hey there are 14 raids mind sitting for this 1 fight to let Soandso in?"

3. You can have 1-2 weaker players (or new players) and due to #1 still succeed. Which allows experienced raid groups to train new players that can then go on to join/create other raid groups. As it is now you can't realistically say "ok guys were taking this ilvl 90 ______ into 6-9 this week"... You would wipe horribly. It is very unrealistic to expect your raid to 7 man all the events (3 dps, 1 tank, or 1 heal).



I find it VERY ironic that the game is SUPER casual (really... content is tuned for as much as 30 ilvls below what the content actually provides) but soon as you hit coil it's more hardcore than any MMO out there because due to the small raid size all 8 people have to be PERFECT or you fail. Where if raids were 16/24 man you could have a couple 90% players and still get through due to the reasons above.


Also I dunno where putting together 25 man teams is next to impossible comes from. Couple FC members and I decided to try out WoW for something to do and its taken us about 2 weeks to get raid ready and there are pugs everywhere.

Rift was the same way you could find pug groups easily and static raid groups even easier.

[kiraan]

You are not everyone.

You're doing exactly the same by assuming people will need or actually want better itemization on secondary stat because you're doing SCOB. Truth to be told, its not necessary anywhere else and even there, beside Accuracy, anything else is a really minor improvement and even not needed when it can be done in a relatively lower iLvl than the max one.

And no, if you've been playing for a while you won't need C,D,E,F for your main job ( i'm bolding it again since obviously you're omitting that the main point of my argumentation). I think your main grip is actually how my thread title is formulated, i didn't mean Crystal tower will be useless at all, i did mean they won't be any incentive to go there for your main job if you have been playing actively it and actually doing the content we got presented. And that include the zodiac questline, because why people who took the time to do it should be punished now? I'm not saying to remove tomestone from the drop, i'm saying they should have left both oil and sand too from the start.

So of course i know not everyone is like me, but a bunch of people are , so why should our enjoyement be delayed? Wouldn't it be better if everyone could fine something interesting in Crystal tower for him/her as soon as patch 2.3 is out?

PS: For you information, the soldiery caster set for summoner has terrible itemization too but i don't find any incentive to run something over and over for a 0.5% increase in performance.

[Hiruke]

Really Crystal Tower should be coming out before Coil instead of after. It seems like it's forever backtracking. Hard to get excited about gear that's obsolete before it even exists.

[Vahlnir]

Really Crystal Tower should be coming out before Coil instead of after. It seems like it's forever backtracking. Hard to get excited about gear that's obsolete before it even exists.

Yeah, while I don't do Coil at all I agree with this. I'd imagine they will set the record straight with the expansion, but who knows.

[Roris]

Really Crystal Tower should be coming out before Coil instead of after. It seems like it's forever backtracking. Hard to get excited about gear that's obsolete before it even exists.

That was kinda the original plan, CT was supposed to help gear for Coil on launch and relics were even mentioned as a requirement just to get access to CT back then. Then CT got delayed because it was "too hard" aka it wasn't finished on time for release and everything went downhill from there.

[AldoVonAlexandros]

i wonder if we are going to wait hours for fate spawn like the last time, i was one on the first to enter ct and we waited long for fates to spawn XD

[Welsper59]

It is harder to put together a 8 man team than it is for a 30-40-50 man team. And I will explain why.

EQ. 15 year old game. 54 man raids are NO problem.

1. Raids tuned for more people are easier to do a man or 2 down

---example with our current setup say 1 dps misses. Even if we could zone in with 7 realistically each of the 3 remaining increasing their dps by 33% to account for the missing 4th is unrealistic. Now lets look at having 8 dps and 1 missing. each only has to increase their dps by 14%. The larger the raid the easier it is to account for people missing.

2. The larger the raid the more realistic it is to have a bench*

---With current 8 man raids having even a 3 man bench (a tank, dps, and healer) isn't very realistic.. because well that's almost half of ANOTHER raid group.


*really we would need MORE raids too though to have a bench because asking someone to rotate out with the benched player for 1 event when theres only 4 is a lot harder than saying "hey there are 14 raids mind sitting for this 1 fight to let Soandso in?"

3. You can have 1-2 weaker players (or new players) and due to #1 still succeed. Which allows experienced raid groups to train new players that can then go on to join/create other raid groups. As it is now you can't realistically say "ok guys were taking this ilvl 90 ______ into 6-9 this week"... You would wipe horribly. It is very unrealistic to expect your raid to 7 man all the events (3 dps, 1 tank, or 1 heal).



I find it VERY ironic that the game is SUPER casual (really... content is tuned for as much as 30 ilvls below what the content actually provides) but soon as you hit coil it's more hardcore than any MMO out there because due to the small raid size all 8 people have to be PERFECT or you fail. Where if raids were 16/24 man you could have a couple 90% players and still get through due to the reasons above.


Also I dunno where putting together 25 man teams is next to impossible comes from. Couple FC members and I decided to try out WoW for something to do and its taken us about 2 weeks to get raid ready and there are pugs everywhere.

Rift was the same way you could find pug groups easily and static raid groups even easier.

Sorry, I was referring to a static 25-man group for raids. PUGs are always available, because of no commitment needs, but practically all endgame guilds/FCs would rather have the consistency of fellow members than some random joe that you don't know. There's just too much of an issue of liability when you invite pugs to something. Relying on the commitment of 24/25 people is next to impossible for most people these days. There will always be folks out there that won't have that problem, but pick any random person from a crowd and ask them if they'd be able to easily have 24 others commit, and the odds are quite low that they'd respond positively. Mentality of the general player base has changed drastically, and it's actually a little uncommon to find people that will commit or dedicate themselves to a raid time.

I agree about the difficulty of the content for raids that require lower numbers, as there's far more responsibility involved that results from the fact that there isn't much backup available, but what I was getting at was that it is way easier to find 7 friends/members to do things as a group, than it is to find 15, 23, etc of them. Just the set up of it is a prime factor (among a sea of other reasons) of why raids see lower participation. The difficulty can also be a deterrent, but it's not exactly the scariest thing when you do it with people you know. The history of other MMORPGs point that the higher the body count is for requirements to raid, the lower the participation becomes. It's true that sometimes it's because of the difficulty, but I know for a fact that it's also because people just don't have the numbers for it. WoW, with Kara as a prime example, saw a HUGE spike in raid participation once they got rid of 40man raids... with Kara being the most done raid during its time at 10man content, whereas the 25man stuff, while still popular, didn't hit the same degree of participation.