SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

[Exstal]

I don't think he meant silent majority. I think he meant exactly what he said.

[Dwill]

Vocal minority you mean silent majority because a majority of people don't think the Summoner feels like a Summoner they either think it plays like a WOW Warlock, a WOW hunter with magic attacks or a Red Mage/Necromancer hybrid with a pet not a Summoner.

And how would you know how the MAJORITY, which means 51%+ of the summoner playbase think like you ? You can barely get 2-3 players to think like you on this forum which is <10% of the actual player base (being extremely generous, it's probably much lower) who posts.

I don't think he meant silent majority. I think he meant exactly what he said.

Pretty much.

[Akiza]

And how would you know how the MAJORITY, which means 51%+ of the summoner playbase think like you ? You can barely get 2-3 players to think like you on this forum which is <10% of the actual player base (being extremely generous, it's probably much lower) who posts.



Pretty much.

Do you have stats to back up your claim or a in game poll that suggest players are fine with the Summoner or are just waiting for square to make changes to the pet. The majority of players don't post in forums and I'm sure In have more than 3 people that agree with me since people make new forums about changing the Summoner every other week. There is a reason Black Mages outnumber Summoners 6:1 and it has nothing to do with damage it has to do with the pet design and appearance.

[Ryel]

I'll bite.. I'm one of those people that aren't especially happy with the design choices they've made with SMN so far to be honest.

That isn't to say it's a broken or non-functional job because mechanically it works just fine, however to me personally it doesn't really feel like a Summoner. It does feel very much like Affliction Warlock from WoW which is kind of Ironic because i feel Demonology Warlock would have actually translated better to SMN in this game, Metamorphosis -> Esper form etc.

Something like this but obviously based on current Egi: http://www.wowwiki.com/Metamorphosis

See also: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/E..._Fantasy_VI%29

And: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Terra_Branford

As for changes / additions / anything else that isn't really my place to say as it is SMN is a great DoT DPS class just one that doesn't bring to mind the images of the traditional Final Fantasy summoner.

[Wolf_Shay]

Do you have stats to back up your claim or a in game poll that suggest players are fine with the Summoner or are just waiting for square to make changes to the pet. The majority of players don't post in forums and I'm sure In have more than 3 people that agree with me since people make new forums about changing the Summoner every other week. There is a reason Black Mages outnumber Summoners 6:1 and it has nothing to do with damage it has to do with the pet design and appearance.

Whoa. Hold the phone here. Darlin, you've been trying to put a star peg that you call a square peg in a round hole because you think it would be prettier and should fit, but refuse to show us the board or the peg you're trying to fit, swearing up and down that it would fit. We've demanded on multiple occasions that you show us your statistics, but you've adamantly refused at every turn. So either show your hand or leave the table, because I'm calling your bluff here.

[Dwill]

Do you have stats to back up your claim or a in game poll that suggest players are fine with the Summoner or are just waiting for square to make changes to the pet. The majority of players don't post in forums and I'm sure In have more than 3 people that agree with me since people make new forums about changing the Summoner every other week. There is a reason Black Mages outnumber Summoners 6:1 and it has nothing to do with damage it has to do with the pet design and appearance.

You demand stats out of me then proceed to say that BLM outnumbers SMN on a 6 to 1 ration which is an outlandish claim if I'Ve ever seen one and with no source to back it up. Then you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

I'll bite.. I'm one of those people that aren't especially happy with the design choices they've made with SMN so far to be honest.

That isn't to say it's a broken or non-functional job because mechanically it works just fine, however to me personally it doesn't really feel like a Summoner. It does feel very much like Affliction Warlock from WoW which is kind of Ironic because i feel Demonology Warlock would have actually translated better to SMN in this game, Metamorphosis -> Esper form etc.

Something like this but obviously based on current Egi: http://www.wowwiki.com/Metamorphosis

See also: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/E..._Fantasy_VI%29

And: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Terra_Branford

As for changes / additions / anything else that isn't really my place to say as it is SMN is a great DoT DPS class just one that doesn't bring to mind the images of the traditional Final Fantasy summoner.

One word can dismiss this entire suggestion: Lore. And like I've said plenty of time, the concept of a single player summoner cannot be introduce in a MMORPG.

[Ryel]

You demand stats out of me then proceed to say that BLM outnumbers SMN on a 6 to 1 ration which is an outlandish claim if I'Ve ever seen one and with no source to back it up. Then you wonder why no one takes you seriously.




One word can dismiss this entire suggestion: Lore. And like I've said plenty of time, the concept of a single player summoner cannot be introduce in a MMORPG.

Well actually the lore for something similar to Warlock's Metamorphosis isn't really all that far fetched with the information we've been given currently keep in mind I'm not saying SMN needs to be Demonology Warlock I'm just saying it actually could have fit rather nicely.

With what we know there really isn't anything so far that has implied that the energies SMN has borrowed/ripped/whatever you'd like to call it from Primals can ONLY be channeled outward into the forms we know as Egi's.

There really isn't anything leading us to believe that those same energies couldn't be channeled inwards to augment ourselves as well.

See: http://www.wowwiki.com/Metamorphosis once again please.

And a video in case it wasn't clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIDe8kaIu5U

Obviously it would take on the aspects of the Egi currently summoned rather than being a large purple demon.

If you read the links posted in my first post and in this one you'd realize that Metamorphosis for Demonology Warlock in WoW wasn't some huge AoE single player devastating old school Final Fantasy attack, which is by no means what i was suggesting, nor was i suggesting that Egi's should take on the larger full forms that were present in FFXI.

In fact the very reason i linked both the article on Espers and Terra is because doing so with Summoner could not only have worked in game but have been a massive throwback to a previous Final Fantasy title in name. I think there are more than quite a few people thinking everyone wants to summon The Magus Sisters and have them come down and do Delta attack for WTFBBQ amounts of damage but this isn't anywhere close.

You say Summoner from single player games wouldn't have worked here and i fully agree with you which is why i specifically linked a working example from another MMO

STOP. THIS. THREAD.

DEAR. JESUS.

I cant handle any more bad suggestions from people that know nothing about devolping a video game let alone an MMO.

I hope this isn't a shot at Blizzard considering the current Summoner is basically ripped from Affliction Warlock to begin with, the only thing i've suggested was trading one copied WoW spec for another.

See: http://www.wowwiki.com/Affliction

[II__II]

As someone who as just rejoined the game from 1.0 and was ecstatic to try SMN, the design was extremely disappointing. I'm not 50 yet, so can't comment to heavily on late game, but here is the playstyle of the summoner I imagined.

1. Make the summons more specific, increase the number, and give them a duration and cooldown.
- In essence, treat summons like extended spells. Let me summon Ifrit for (slightly longer than) a GCD, allow him to stay on the field for ~20 seconds before disappearing and give him a minute cooldown. Get rid of Ifrit's utility and make him a nuker. The addition of more summons (some that cast debuffs, some that buff, some that tank i.e Titan) while increasing their specificity would give a SMN more situational control.

2. Add a few summons that cast additional DoTs necessary to maximize DPS.
- Make me summon Siren to throw on an aqua DoT and a silence debuff and then bring out Quezacotl to throw on an electric DoT and paralyze to keep my DPS at a maximum.
- This would keep in line with the DoT focus of ACN but allows you to accomplish it through your summons.


An example fight would go something like this.

>> Summon Madeen. Madeen casts shell on the entire party and gives a 10 second +spell speed buff, disappears immediately after buffs are cast.
>> Summon Titan. Titan roots the enemy and focuses his attention while you cast your DoTs.
>> Summon Quezacotl/Siren/Shiva/Leviathan. [Summon] debuffs and add their own DoTs to the target. Can also auto attack with other spells and disappear after ~30 secs.

"Oh no, I'm starting to take a bit of damage"

>> Summon Alexander. Alexander casts a divine shield on [target ally/yourself] and begins to take aggro from enemy. Titan acts as a pseudo tank but leaves the field after 10 seconds.

"Now I can reposition myself away from the enemy."

>> Summon Unicorn. Unicorn gives you/your party a HoT and begins casting cure/embrace. 5-10 seconds.

"My DoTs are in place and I'm alive."

>> Summon Ifrit. Ifrit begins to nuke the hell out of your enemy and you shred him to pieces. Ifrit will disappear after 20 seconds though so you can't just leave him out to fight.


Basically, each summon would last long enough to cast their own spells, provide utility or damage depending on the situation, but it is the summoners job to pick the best primal for the task at hand. Additionally, allowing the summon to last for 10-30 seconds gives you the option to control them (similar to the pets) and be in charge of their actions, but the disappearance and slightly longer cooldown times (1-3 minutes) forces you to use multiple summons per battle and implement their effects into your fight (i.e. so I can' just use Ifrit to nuke all my enemies down). To me, this would make SMN feel less like a pet class and more like the summoners of old, while keeping in line with the way the ACN class is currently set up.

Another option I've heard is to give each summon certain auras. This could take place of or be in conjunction with giving them a few specific skills.

Edit: From a more selfish level, I feel like this would also make it more convenient to make the summons more aesthetically pleasing. Make it feel like I'm summoning a primal not running around with a floating red pet behind me.