Of Keys, Symbols, Gods, Primals, and Coils (spoilers for everything)

[Saikou]

I am in full crack theory mode after having listened to Gamerescape's Podcast and their printed interview with Ferne. That thread is getting overlong and starting to cover far too many topics at the same time for my liking, so I'm making this thread here to talk about Keys and Symbols and their significance when it comes to Gods, Primals, and a certain Elder Primal.

So, the interview with Ferne indicates that Louisoix's staff is of the same enchantment as "key" from the Limsa Lominsa 1.0 story. This "key" was a horn. A similar horn also existed in Ul'dah which was responsible for the parade accident and was able to create a distraction to allow a Garlean spy to escape.

Now, maybe I'm getting all mixed up and not remembering all this binding coil dialogue that was mined from post-turn-9. Alphinaud and Alisae talk about having a key. That using said key could have unpredictable and potentially negative consequences. Reading it, it seemed like they were just speaking in metaphors regarding how to deal with Bahamut and Louisoix "Deus" Levellier. But now we know that there is a literal key which is, by right of inheritance, the property of both Alphinaud and Alisae. Did I read that part of the quest text wrong? Am I not remembering correctly? Have I lost it? I'm surprised that Gamerescape's folk didn't recall this when discussing Ferne bringing up the significance of the staff in their recent podcast.

Then we have this whole thing where the Ixal use the exact same model staff. Louisoix's has Althyk's symbol on it, while the Ixal had versions with Oschon and Llymlaen if I recall correctly. It seems like we have some crazy things with Keys and the symbols of The 12 going on. In the Ferne Interview thread, Catapult floated the idea in his back and forth with The Moose that the symbols of the 12 could have more significance in summoning rituals, and Allagan Summoning Rituals at that, than as actual deities. All of these connections have me thinking the same thing. I have to agree that the staves used by the Ixal can't all have the same power as the staff that could attack and repel Bahamut. But I have to believe that these symbols have power and have significance to non-eorzean-alliance peoples. This is the only way I can see Garuda tolerating these symbols. I propose that the symbols of the 12, perhaps only in a small way, benefit Garuda when used in Ixali magicks.

Our whole theory of the 12 Eorzean God's symbols only having significance in summoning and spellcasting is rooted in the belief that the oldest versions of these symbols that we have had access to originated with The Allagans. And the Allagans knew a thing or 3 about magic and summoning, as we well know. One seeming anomaly in this theory, however, is that the symbol for Memphina contains Dalamud. If the moons are the symbol of whatever power is inherent in Memphina, whatever Memphina actually is... And the Allagans built Dalamud, so clearly they know that its an artificial satellite and not a proper moon. It would fit better if Dalamud pre-dated the Allagans, but we know that it contains their defense system and dragon-leashing tech. Among other things. If the Memphina symbol as it appears in-game now dates back to The Allagan Civilization, I have no answer for why it includes Dalamud. Occam's razor would seem to indicate that either the symbol was altered by later generations to reflect the change in the apparent lunar situation, or that Dalamud as a solar energy collecting space ship prison was not a story idea at the time that the symbols of the gods were created. I'm going to go with the latter, but with the former as the best in-universe explanation to justify changes made by the re-jigged dev team under Yoshi-P.

Thoughts?

[Anonymoose]

Alphinaud and Alisae talk about having a key.

Will you now find a use for the secret─for the key that only you and I hold? Given our familial propensity for curiosity, you would do well to remember that keys may serve to seal doors as well as to unlock them. And Bahamut is a most unwelcome guest, to whom the door should never have been opened.

Could be the staff, though they left "the secret" as a pretty big tease - if Koji wasn't even allowed to tell us where the black mages were in the War of the Magi, would he really be able to extend discussion about the Horn to Louisoix for the sake of painting a clearer picture if the secret was that Louisoix's staff is a key? Is it even still a key now that it's in splinters?

I have to believe that these symbols have power and have significance to non-eorzean-alliance peoples. This is the only way I can see Garuda tolerating these symbols. I propose that the symbols of the 12, perhaps only in a small way, benefit Garuda when used in Ixali magicks.

Imho, the very fact that the Allag used these symbols is enough to know that they aren't necessarily what we think they are, for reasons including but not limited to the ones you mentioned. We know there are two for each element due to the existence of Astral and Umbral polarities, so the only new thing we're putting forward is that they are primarily representative of these forces. For instance, if a society near the sea has a cultural fear and respect of the forces of the ocean that develops over time into more superstitious beliefs about its power, and then the target of their superstitions is given a name, how many generations before that name is a God whose power overshadows that of the sea itself? That's certainly one theory towards what's going on now.

It's so open-ended that it's hard to put any evidence up against, though.

[Catapult]

We can easily refer to the mechanics of arcanima to indicate the significance of symbols in magic. Arcanists utilise symbols to weave spells of considerable power, so it is plausible that the symbols of the Twelve were the tools of the trade of an Allagan mage.

On the symbol of Menphina, why should it represent the moons? That curvy line through the middle doesn't look very lunar. To me, it looks more like a continental coastline, meaning the symbol could be intended to represent the planet and its moon. Or something else again. I'm trying to keep an open mind on that front.
(Halone may in fact be draconic claw marks... and there would be so much Ishgardian irony if that were true.)

[Anonymoose]

Halone may in fact be draconic claw marks... and there would be so much Ishgardian irony if that were true.

While you're on this Allagan Runestone kick, I should make you aware of something I found the other day. At the crossroads of the Labyrinth of the ancients, there's a square platform (disappears on the way to Acheron) upon which are hundreds of carved runes. I was hoping to use it as a sort of Rosetta Stone to translate the various symbols throughout the dungeon, but my hopes were dashed when I realized that these symbols aren't the same as the ones on the walls and floors, and neither of those are the same as the WARNING glyphs that appear around towers and Atomos. Moreover, there aren't even many of them - it's the same repeated set... of twelve. They don't look very similar to the runestones, but one looks like three lowercase i's in a row, which makes me think Halone. Could it be that the other 11 have analogs if you look hard enough? Dunno yet... ><

[Saikou]

On the symbol of Menphina, why should it represent the moons? That curvy line through the middle doesn't look very lunar. To me, it looks more like a continental coastline, meaning the symbol could be intended to represent the planet and its moon. Or something else again. I'm trying to keep an open mind on that front.
(Halone may in fact be draconic claw marks... and there would be so much Ishgardian irony if that were true.)

Imho, the very fact that the Allag used these symbols is enough to know that they aren't necessarily what we think they are, for reasons including but not limited to the ones you mentioned. We know there are two for each element due to the existence of Astral and Umbral polarities, so the only new thing we're putting forward is that they are primarily representative of these forces. For instance, if a society near the sea has a cultural fear and respect of the forces of the ocean that develops over time into more superstitious beliefs about its power, and then the target of their superstitions is given a name, how many generations before that name is a God whose power overshadows that of the sea itself? That's certainly one theory towards what's going on now.

And I thought I was the only one sampling Walter White's product... It would be pretty crazy if the symbols of the Gods were not at all what Eorzeans believed them to be. It would make so much sense if they were glyphs or runes used to cast powerful magicks. Or maybe that they were more talismanic in nature or they have some inherent warding power related to their specific element. It would certainly explain why Louisoix summoned giant versions of the Gods' symbols when attempting to bind Bahamut. It makes what he did seem a whole lot like a Super-Sized version of magicks that players have access to, many of which cause the visual evocation of symbols or runes in the air when cast. The reason he couldn't evoke the Gods was because, if that's not impossible, it would seem that's not what the God's symbols are intended for.

Catapult, I like the Ishgard Indoctrination Theory. I do believe that they would be desperate enough to be tempted by the Ascians to try and summon Halone, to get Shiva instead, and have their already significant zeal enhanced by being frozen. It neatly explains a lot of things going down in Coerthas right now.

Could be the staff, though they left "the secret" as a pretty big tease - if Koji wasn't even allowed to tell us where the black mages were in the War of the Magi, would he really be able to extend discussion about the Horn to Louisoix for the sake of painting a clearer picture if the secret was that Louisoix's staff is a key? Is it even still a key now that it's in splinters?

This is another thing that, based on the minuscule info that we have at present, seems most perfect to plug into the only place in the story where keys are talked about. Its the right people talking about this key in the right context. That staff has been dwelled upon so much since Louisoix tried to bind Bahamut again, I just have a hard time believing that this MacGuffin has outlived its usefulness.

Mr Moose, The Black Mages thing is interesting. His inability to reveal that has me thinking that we have more old ruins to explore elsewhere in Eorzea. Trying to bring us back on target, I've always thought that Rhalgr's symbol being a meteor and one of the ultimate magics, attributed to Black Mages in the story of Shattoto, is also a meteor... I've always found that to be a little coincidental. As we already know there were black mages from all over the realm even in Shattoto's day (our beast tribe friends), can we be certain that the lady herself wasn't originally from Gyr Abania? We associate historic Ala Mihgo with The Monks and the spearing of Fafhogg's eye, but the symbol of the meteor makes me think the city or an older one in that region has a historic connection to this specific magic. Unless, referring to our theory above about the bastardization of symbols, Rhalgr's symbol is not at all what we believe it to be. Until the game or Koji tells us otherwise, I tend to favor theories that open doors rather than close them. Meaning, I'll believe it's a meteor until we're told otherwise. I find it easier to believe that Memphina's symbol actually being Hydaelyn and it's moon rather than the greater moon and the lesser moon... but now I'm just picking and choosing my theories.

Please add or subtract from these thoughts as you guys like. Your ideas are fascinating, as always.

[Morningstar1337]

... Reading it, it seemed like they were just speaking in metaphors regarding how to deal with Bahamut and Louisoix "Deus" Levellier...

Wait what? I want to know more out this...

[Saikou]

This is a part of "spoilers for everything, but... Mr Happy can explain what I mean better than any of my own clumsy words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzRB9s3B9uw

The last aetheric essence of Louisoix has been bound to Bahamut's will in much the same way Nael's had been. That would be the reader's digest version. This troubles both Alphinaud and Alisae equally, the former concerned about the consequences of bringing their "secret," their "key" into play. It is for this reason that I believe that I believe the staff, shattered though it may be, has greater significance than we have seen so far and also has a role to play in the battle against Bahamut's attempts to bind himself back together.

[Valerathon]

There have to be answers to questions about the nature of Bahamut and The 12 and the Ascians in the lyrics to the tracks for both Praetorium and the second fight with Ultima.

I was more than a little bummed that such an answerable question was never posed (it was in the pre-interview thread), and a little curious as to why the Devs and Fern would avoid supplying the words when they've been so forthcoming with so much else.

[Morningstar1337]

The last aetheric essence of Louisoix has been bound to Bahamut's will in much the same way Nael's had been. That would be the reader's digest version. This troubles both Alphinaud and Alisae equally, the former concerned about the consequences of bringing their "secret," their "key" into play. It is for this reason that I believe that I believe the staff, shattered though it may be, has greater significance than we have seen so far and also has a role to play in the battle against Bahamut's attempts to bind himself back together.

I see, so Louisoux has been Tempered huh. Makes one wonder if we'll have to fight tempered zombie versions of Noraxia and Gaius.

[Saikou]

To say he has been tempered is a vast oversimplification.

Alisae's hope springs eternal, while Alphinaud believes he's a goner. Nael proved that "he" could reassert control, but "he" still "died the true death" at the hands of bahamut / aether-Louisoix. It is implied that Bahamut is/was sustaining both of them, implying that killing Bahamut = killing Louisoix. But the Louisoix we see at the end of Second Coil is an angry, Nael Deus Darnuss-esque version of Louisoix who kills the newly self-aware Nael with a lance of aetheric energy. It's not the real Louisoix. It's a corrupted Shade. I could be wrong, but I don't see how Louisoix gets a happy ending after having seen what he's become.

It is worse than the usual tempering because their physical bodies are dead and the last of their "essence" is bound to one very angry and very powerful elder primal.