Do the developers even care about the market board, and its problems?

[Xystic]

Many other MMOs have listing fees and they still have undercutting problems. It won't solve anything.

That is exactly correct.

Also this belongs in the markets thread.

Everyone knows there should be a listing fee for having retainers sell items on the market board.

This has been discussed many times over many other MMOs. Listing fees do nothing of any sort to stop the initial undercutting. People will always undercut you on their first listing. So if we place in a listing fee, people's goods are now stuck on the market boards because relisting will cause a loss. Much higher skilled merchants will take it one step further and will use listing fees to monopolize markets.

You have equal footing against me on the market boards in this game. It allows the average skilled merchant to make money off the market boards without being cornered. In games like World of Warcraft, many markets were cornered by a few individuals. The average skill merchant now relists at a loss or sits and waits on it to hopefully sell in listing fee systems.

However, you already notice people undercut as quick as you readjust your prices. This is how fast we can restock our goods as well, meaning, your item your sitting on, may never sell. This forces you to relist at a loss or leaving the market altogether.

In this current market, the average/casual/low commodity merchant gets to be on equal footing for every single item they sell against a higher skilled/commodity merchant because they can freely relist without being cornered with listing fees.

However because you get equality, you now have a much more competitive market but overall, average/casual/low commodity merchants, now make a lot more gil than they use to in other systems like listing fees where a majority of the market was controlled by players like me.

[therpgfanatic]

This has been discussed many times over many other MMOs. Listing fees do nothing of any sort to stop the initial undercutting. People will always undercut you on their first listing. So if we place in a listing fee, people's goods are now stuck on the market boards because relisting will cause a loss. Much higher skilled merchants will take it one step further and will use listing fees to monopolize markets.

"This has been discussed in other games" is a crappy argument. The objective isn't to stop a handful of casuals from undercutting.

The objective is to stop botters and hardcore players from camping the marketboard to *constantly* undercut and eventually crash the market with prices at 1 gil. Because it eats up all their gil to constantly relist, so they will let the items sit and get bought in the next hour. The prices will stabilize within 100 gil of one another, as new items get bought up, making the more expensive items the only ones which remain.

This works because people are not listing 1,000+ listings of an item at once. For many item types like ores and crystals, there is only about 30-40 listings at any particular time because players are constantly buying these items and thus removing the listing from the market board. That is why prices can stabilize, but not if the market has crashed because those 30-40 players all listed their items rock bottom while trying to become the first search result.

Furthermore with listing fees you wouldn't see people listing items at 1 gil because they can't. Plus the listing fee ensures that players sell items a high enough price point that the player turns a profit from at least the listing fee.

You're hating this suggestion without fully understanding the mechanics through which it works. You don't see markets crashing in WoW because of the listing fees for the auction houses.

I'm sure that as a player of MMOs that Yoshi has experienced these things for himself in other games and can see why listing fees need to be added, if he'd just take the time to examine the issue.

So my complaint isn't that the dev team doesn't know there is a problem or are incapable of fixing them. My question is if they care at all about addressing the issues. The simple fact that the 'Free Search' function was made so quickly that it only searches for exact results and not for word matches indicates they haven't spent any time polishing the marketboards. I'd like them to revisit it, since it is an incredibly important part of the player experience and it is extremely subpar compared to the rest of the game.

[Xystic]

You're hating this suggestion without fully understanding the mechanics through which it works. You don't see markets crashing in WoW because of the listing fees for the auction houses.

You clearly don't see the mechanics yourself. I don't hate this mechanic, I actually prefer it when I want to make a ton of gold/gil. I can use the listing fee to corner markets to my liking. I don't think you understand how powerful the listing fees are.

Your argument that prices in world of warcraft don't crash is invalid because you don't understand how monopolized the market is in world of warcraft and how much gold is being withheld constantly in that game.

The reason you don't see the the prices crashing in world of warcraft is because a handful of us control it. Why do you think the markets don't fluctuate? Because a few people monopolize and set the prices. When someone undercuts in my market in that game, I just straightline them to the minimum profit margin, forcing them to relist at a loss or leaving the market altogether. At this point, I can readjust the prices to my liking again. Rinse and repeat producing this so called stable prices you believe you are seeing when in fact it is just a monopolized market.

In this system, everyone stands a fair chance at making gil and overall, people do make more gil.

Like I stated earlier, the market is much more competitive here because of the equality and if you feel listing fees is going to give you an edge, than your completely wrong.

Because you see prices stable does not mean everyone is prospering due to it.

[therpgfanatic]

The reason you don't see the the prices crashing in world of warcraft is because a handful of us control it. Why do you think the markets don't fluctuate? Because a few people monopolize and set the prices. When someone undercuts in my market in that game, I just straightline them to the minimum profit margin, forcing them to relist at a loss or leaving the market altogether. At this point, I can readjust the prices to my liking again. Rinse and repeat producing this so called stable prices you believe you are seeing when in fact it is just a monopolized market.

First off, you are confusing "controlling the market" and "monopolizing" with what is actually happening: players self-regulating the market to protect their own financial interests (i.e. make back the investment they just spent with listing fees"). You're not monopolizing it; that would require you to be the only one able to produce and sell the item in question. Which you are most certainly not able to do in an MMO like WoW or FF XIV. A monopoly requires exclusivity.

In actuality, by writing your post you've just agreed that listing fees do exactly what I've said they do.

I stress again that you do not fully understand the mechanics at work here.

PS: You also painted a scenario that looks ideal to you. But it could go (and often does) another way: the other player might be trying to do the very same thing to you. And he might have more money than you. When you try to "force someone" out of a market by getting them to relist lower and lower, you yourself take on a financial risk; you are spending money to do all the listing over and over. If you both have sizable bank accounts and egos, you can waste a lot of money going back and forth like that...until another third-party comes along, buys up all your items and relists them at the fair market price. Then you both lose.

It is too much financial risk to engage in constant undercutting wars when list fees are involved, that is why they aren't as common as in FF XIV. And good for the developers; tons of money gets drained out of the economy when players engage in those turf war attempts.

[Xystic]

First off, you are confusing "controlling the market" and "monopolizing" with what is actually happening: players self-regulating the market to protect their own financial interests (i.e. make back the investment they just spent with listing fees"). You're not monopolizing it; that would require you to be the only one able to produce and sell the item in question.

In actuality, by writing your post you've just agreed that listing fees do exactly what I've said they do.

By using listing fees to filter out players, you force people out of the markets, allowing you to monopolize/control specific markets, meaning you will be the only one to produce goods in that market. People will not produce or sell goods that make no money if someone is going to make sure you make no money any time you enter a specific market. We see it time and time again when we enter a certain market, someone immediately drops the price on you to the point where you make no money and when you leave the market, the person readjusts the market back up.

Based off your replies, you are bent, on defending your topic regardless how terrible the cons are in listing fee systems. Regardless of my explanations, it appears, they will all be ignored or considered irrelevant. So I will end my argument that listing fees are not as you claim, with you.

I would recommend the community to CAREFULLY look in to listing fees before deciding. Listing fees have been around for nearly 10 years and so its been analyzed thoroughly. I personally, like I stated before, don't mind what system we do because I've attained enough experience over the years to do well in either system but listing fee systems are not what people think they are.

I'm very active on the markets forum, its the number one forum I sit in. There are quite a few threads about listing fees and listing fees have been discussed much much more thoroughly as well there if anyone is interested in learning more about what listing fees really do.

~Cheers

[LineageRazor]

At this point, I can readjust the prices to my liking again.

It's always adorable to see people who feel they have any kind of actual "control" over the market beyond short-term fluctuations. MMO markets aren't like real markets. When someone strongarms, no one goes bankrupt, no one is forced to leave the market forever. They don't depend on the business to keep a roof over their head, or food on their plate. If a particular market becomes unfavorable - they just stay away until it's favorable again. You haven't taught anyone a lesson, you haven't discouraged undercutting - you probably haven't even so much as irritated your target. The one and only thing you've done is make a few buyers happy for as long as your vendetta lasts.

In an MMO market, particularly one like this where nothing is sold that is best-in-slot, and very little is sold that can't be acquired by anyone who bothers to level the correct DoL or DoH classes, there is one and only one factor that affects the prices of goods in the long term: supply and demand. If there's more products available than there are interested buyers, prices go down. If there's more buyers than product, price goes up.

Anything anyone (even RMT) does to game the market or "fix" prices - buying out cheap stock to sell high, selling at cost to punish or scare other sellers, none of it works beyond the short term. People simply won't buy overpriced goods because there's little reason to - nothing is best-in-slot. (Note: "overpriced" is relative; a very wealthy player will be willing to shell out more for something than a player with very little money.) Underpriced goods will sell fast as long as players are willing to underprice them, but that's by definition a losing game.

[Xystic]

no one is forced to leave the market forever.

This is not real life markets but the dealers and buyers are still very real. People will not produce and sell at losses. All this information about surviving or going bankrupt is very irrelevant. As long as People will not produce and sell at losses, you can force people to leave markets.

People simply won't buy overpriced goods because there's little reason to - nothing is best-in-slot.

What is the blue bird BIS for?

[LineageRazor]

This is not real life markets but the dealers and buyers are still very real. People will not produce and sell at losses. All this information about surviving or going bankrupt is very irrelevant. As long as People will not produce and sell at losses, you can force people to leave markets.

Again, you can force them to leave, but you can't force them to stay gone. That is why my talk of bankruptcy is relevant: in the real world, if someone is forced out of the market, they are very likely gone forever. It is unlikely that any bank will trust them to start up the business again. It's what makes strongarming a very real and scary tactic when applied in the real world. It's why real-world sellers stay gone when they are forced out of a market. There are NO SUCH PENALTIES in this game.

If a player decides to throw a market tantrum, once the tantrum is over (and it WILL end eventually - like you said, people cannot afford to produce and sell at a loss forever, and that includes YOU) their competetors can get right back into the game. It's as simple as that. Your competetors haven't lost any property or bank trust; they all have the same capabilities as they did before you began. Thanks to the lack of listing fees, they haven't even lost any gil. Nothing you did makes any difference at all. You forced people out of the market, and once you stopped they came right back.

Any player is free to drop a rock into the ocean. Don't expect it to leave a hole. That is how insignificant yours, RMTs, or ANY sellers' games are on the markets.

What is the blue bird BIS for?

Like everything else on the markets, blue bird is not BIS anywhere (though in this case because it has no real slot). It happens to be a luxury item, and only the wealthy with money to burn will every buy one in the first place. All of that is irrelevant; blue bird is as immune in the long term to market manipulation as anything else. Your strategy of forcing others out of the market is even LESS workable here, because blue birds are serendipitous. No one in their right mind will deliberately farm blue birds with the intent to make money selling them because obtaining them is time-consuming and unreliable - even at the prices they sell at, it's simply not a good way to make money.

So, sellers are predominantly folks that happen to have lucked into a blue bird. These are not blue bird salespeople, they are people who happen to be trying to sell a blue bird. So, you decide you're going to take control of the blue bird market. If you buy up all the blue birds in stock and resell at a higher price, all the people trying to sell a blue bird walk away happy. You put up your birds at a higher price and, depending on the current market, either you'll sell them or you won't. As a luxury item, people will only buy them if they can afford them. You will have to price according to market demands, same as anyone.

If you try to massively undercut, eventually you will run out of blue birds (probably pretty quickly), and all of the people who you "forced out of the market" will start selling again. What else would they do with their blue birds? NPC them? No, they still have them, and are simply waiting for hurricane Belcross to run its course. The only result of this is that you've lost a ton of potential cash selling those birds cheap.