Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[NovaUltimatum]

It's nowhere the same intention of Titan Extreme, which is to punish you for being a pathetic dodger.

Punishing content = good?

Time to read up on game design!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

[Anyssa]

Punishing content = good?

Time to read up on game design!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

I really liked that video. Demon Souls, Dark Souls, and Dark Souls II were difficult, but I could always feel like a solution was right around the corner if I just knew what had to be done. Some of these boss fights - it's not knowing what has to be done and doing it, it's relying on an entire group of people to do it flawlessly that is imo wrong.

I'll have to watch more videos in that series though, I liked his points.

[Clavaat]

I really liked that video. Demon Souls, Dark Souls, and Dark Souls II were difficult, but I could always feel like a solution was right around the corner if I just knew what had to be done. Some of these boss fights - it's not knowing what has to be done and doing it, it's relying on an entire group of people to do it flawlessly that is imo wrong.

To me, this is a bit of a stretch for comparison's sake. The DS series is primarily a solo game. It's mechanics are driven by the fact that most of the game, you are alone, and cannot rely on friends. The solution is around the corner in FFXIV, also. Relying on the team, is the truly difficult mechanic. It requires coordination and managing your team, often consisting of friends, which a lot of people are not willing to do, or properly for that matter. That's where, I feel the challenge comes from. For me, dodging/handling mechanics are not that difficult, but to others it may be. I'm not one to give up on people, so I try to help them out on an individual level until we get it. That's a challenge.

I may have just made a logical stretch as well, but I think you'll understand my point.

That being said, I would appreciate a bit less pattern, and a bit more forgiveness for mistakes in certain fights, as others are asking. To some extent, both of these things already exist (you never know who conflags are going to target, landslides are going to aim toward, etc), but it wouldn't hurt to balance it a bit more.

[Yukiko]

Mechanic driven like we have in FFXIV is no fun because: (trying to sum up a bit)

1) once knowing, it becomes easy and boring because always the same - we are just machines playing a product
2) unforgiving mechanics and death of one mostly is death of group - machines are perfect and they can stay focused for hours
3) avoid, avoid, DPS, avoid, avoid, DPS... - machines do not need variation just plain simple
4) interaction between players or player and objects is limited - machines do not need social content

[OSUBuckeye4]

Mechanic driven like we have in FFXIV is no fun because: (trying to sum up a bit)

1) once knowing, it becomes easy and boring because always the same - we are just machines playing a product
2) unforgiving mechanics and death of one mostly is death of group - machines are perfect and they can stay focused for hours
3) avoid, avoid, DPS, avoid, avoid, DPS... - machines do not need variation just plain simple
4) interaction between players or player and objects is limited - machines do not need social content

For me, it boils down to...

1) Mechanics are fine, really, go one step further... they are necessary.

2) Scripting is also fine, to a point.

3) Battles that are the same script every time without deviation are not fun for all.


You end up either in a static that breezes through everything, or, you end up wanting to throw your controller through the TV because someone in your 12th PF group that day messed up and yet another group disbanded despite you doing everything correctly according to script.

[Iriadysa]

Punishing content = good?

Time to read up on game design!

Titan Extreme is not an example of what you quoted. I suspect you didn't understand the video you linked, as it often happens with most people that link Extra Credits stuff. This usually happens because they don't understand what they are really talking about.

But here, I will try to help you out.

What I said (which btw is taken completely out of context): "Titan extreme punishes you for being a pathetic dodger". What this means to anyone that isn't trying sound smart quoting Extra Credits is that when you fail at Titan it's because you suck at dodging. It's simple, you cannot dodge = you get punished by it.

What the EC video talks about is the concept of "Punishing Difficulty", which is difficulty specifically designed to have a strong negative impact for failure. Let's talk about Titan Extreme now and think about this: what happens when you wipe at Titan Extreme? Simple, you recover instantly, the fight restarts and you can give it another shot. Yet another, another, another, another.

Let's talk more about the EC video. It talks about the consistency of rules and how it relates to difficulty, giving an example with Dark Souls being consistent with its rules. Is Titan Extreme consistent? Well, what do you know, it is in fact amazingly consistent in the rules it sets for the fight. The rotation of his abilities is always the same, the effect of all of his abilities is always the same, everything is predictable and as consistent as a game can be. So it actually fits with what the EC video is trying to defend.

The video goes out to explain "telegraphing" as well,saying how even "split second decisions" have to be telegraphed. While some in this thread will defend that "split second gameplay is bad design", truth is Titan telegraphs every single thing. You are not required to memorize anything. You have the option to do so, but it's by no means required as every single attack has a build up of seconds. From animations to area effects, there's telegraphs everywhere.

Next, it talks about "Iteration time". It claims a punishing game has a high iteration time, while one with good difficulty will have a low iteration time. This is exactly what Titan does. You die, you respawn instantly and can try again.

Then it talks about usability. Considering FFXIV is so easy to understand, this is yet another check that Titan Extreme complies with the EC video.

Then explains how important timing is when introducing hard content. Titan Extreme is introduced deep into the game, after you have already beaten many things with progressively increasing difficulty. Another check.

So I ask to you, did you actually understand what the video was about? Or did you just think quoting someone else would save you the trouble from thinking by yourself?



But wait, there's more!


Let me quote the OP which you all venerate so much and contrast it with some of the EC tid bits:

Weekly lockouts and other time-gate measures

There are a number of weekly lockouts in FFXIV, however, there are no attempt lockouts. You can try something for as many times as you want until you win. This is another factor that pushes the system towards being mechanics-driven.

Sorry to use FFXI as an example again, but in that game there are attempt lockouts such as with “trigger items” and daily lockouts.
Without meeting the proper prerequisites and having collected all of the trigger items, you could not fight the last boss. So for many people they could only actually meet and fight the boss once every 2 – 4 weeks or so.

Now, time gates like these have always been the subject of complaints and many people thought they were “annoying” and wanted them gone. And in reality, most of these gates have now been removed.

In FFXIV, there's no such entry limitation, and the system is designed so that you're basically expected to keep retrying until you can finally beat the content.

Just by my own personal estimate, you'd need maybe around 10 hours of “practice” before you can clear a particular fight reliably (some people might say even that's too short).

It might just be me but... aren't we just simply replacing entry lockouts or time spent on collecting trigger items with these “practice time” then?

Of course, once you are able to clear a content reliably, you may no longer need to wait out a daily lockout or collect trigger items the next time around, and in a sense that is certainly “convenient”. However, the price that had to be paid for this “convenience” is necessarily difficult battle mechanics; the need to force all new players through this required “practice” period; and diminishing the meaning of party size, party composition, and gear choice. Is that a price worth paying?

And although I don't know how other people feel, I personally feel that a lack of attempt "cap" is causing people to lose concentration as the number of attempts pile on. Yet, for many people in a static it's simply coil all day, every day, and you just get burned out.

I have maybe 3 hours to play in a day, and when almost all of this time is spent in coil, I'm beginning to wish there actually was a weekly limit on the number of attempts.

Because there is no limit on attempts, many people in your FC or LS may simply spend all day in coil, especially right after a patch. And it becomes impossible even just to have a conversation with them, much less try to play together (now, this is not limited to FFXIV. FFXI can be like this too).

The price to pay for being able to “attempt as many times as you like” is the introduction of “difficult mechanics that require long practices”. You gain some and you lose some. But as I have explained up to this point, as an MMORPG, I feel we have lost more than we gained.

Read that piece of crap.

And now tell me how this fits with the EC video, specifically the "Iteration time" aspect.

I'll give you some time to think about it.

...

Exactly.


But wait, there's more!

For example, if Titan randomly decides to use mountain buster (table flip) 3 times in the row, then every single party following the existing strategy today will have their tank die after the second hit.

So now he's advocating for... inconsistency!

I seriously don't know if you people really are trying to follow the argument here or sabotaging your own butts.

[Zantetsuken]

What I said (which btw is taken completely out of context): "Titan extreme punishes you for being a pathetic dodger". What this means to anyone that isn't trying sound smart quoting Extra Credits is that when you fail at Titan it's because you suck at dodging. It's simple, you cannot dodge = you get punished by it.
What the EC video talks about is the concept of "Punishing Difficulty", which is difficulty specifically designed to have a strong negative impact for failure. Let's talk about Titan Extreme now and think about this: what happens when you wipe at Titan Extreme? Simple, you recover instantly, the fight restarts and you can give it another shot. Yet another, another, another, another.
[...]

To quote the episode (@4:42):

"Often, the arbitrary unstoppable deaths occur right in the middle of a 20 minute long battle that you were otherwise winning. Which means, the player has 10 minutes of doing something they already succeeded at."

The standard time it takes to beat Titan is 9-12 minutes.


Furthermore, each example in that episode was of a SINGLE PLAYER experience, where your success or failure wasn't entirely dependent on 7 other players' performance.

So, even if you play perfectly, other players may die, and cause you to fail. The success/failure of your battle becomes arbitrary unless you have an 8-person static where each player is dedicated to spend the time needed get the win.

For a casual player (even with echo) every arbitrary death in the final phase results in ~7 minutes of iteration time.

Which means the player has: ~7 minutes of doing something they already succeeded at.


The result is:

You end up either in a static that breezes through everything, or, you end up wanting to throw your controller through the TV because someone in your 12th PF group that day messed up and yet another group disbanded despite you doing everything correctly according to script.

[Iriadysa]

To quote the episode (@4:42):



The standard time it takes to beat Titan is 9-12 minutes.

Even if you play perfectly, other players may die, and cause you to fail. The success/failure of your battle becomes arbitrary unless you have an 8-person static where each player is dedicated to spend the time needed get the win.

So, for a casual player (even with echo) every arbitrary death in the final phase results in ~7 minutes of iteration time.

Which means the player has: ~7 minutes of doing something they already succeeded at.

If I understand your argument, you are trying to point out that a failure at Titan forces you to retry about 7 minutes of a fight. I believe that it's important you understand that this was an example in their video. Examples are there to illustrate the problem, not to be followed exactly. There's nowhere in the EC video saying "if you are forced to repeat more than 10 minutes it's punishing". In fact, I believe you are doing them a disservice by understanding things like that, as what EC is trying is to educate people about game design, not create hard directives.

I feel the need to remind you that it was not me who brought the EC video into the conversation, I simply flipped the table to show the poster how wrong he was by trying to quote EC on this and how the OP was, in fact, violating the EC guidance in a worse way than the current design. In other words, if repeating 7 minutes of a fight is "high iteration times", imagine what having to farm spawn triggers for a single attempt is. Also, nothing in Titan is neither arbitrary nor unstoppable, but I understand this isn't what you were trying to say.

Now, about Titan Ex specifically: I'm not sure if you have actually beaten Titan Ex, but a single death in the last phase does not end on a wipe. In fact, I've beaten Titan Ex with as low as only 4 people alive. I've beaten Twintania with just a single tank alive (yeah, shit hit the fan on the fire pools phase... I don't know how).

And really... "other players may die, and cause you to fail". Yes, it can happen. It's an MMO. And that's exactly why you have to go with care when applying what EC says as most of their stuff is directed to single player games.

Edit:

There's many many things I don't like about FFXIV. One of them is the how easy everything is. There's new decisions I also dislike, like Atma, Animus and Novus quests or how little end game content there is and how everything is gated through some really annoying restrictions, etc. However, regardless of what my opinion on XIV is, I have to admit that this game does a really solid job on the overall design department. Watch all the EC videos (all of them, not kidding) and try to do a neutral analysis against FFXIV (saving the MMO/singe player stuff) and I'm sure many will notice how refined XIV actually is. Which is a miracle, considering how fast they released ARR.