Exaltation and doubts concerning Rogue/Ninja

[Monsalvato]

Rogue animations are drooling.
Ninja especially looks particularly "ninjaesque" in the looks and animations. It's fantastic

Let's get to the doubts part.

• I see no THF as second job of the Rogue class. Does this mean that we'll never get Thief and that we'll never see another class with double job like Arcanist? As similar as Rogue is, it's NO THF (wields daggers like they're Katanas, won't have AF, won't have relic, will be far-east related etc)
• Ninja will have 17 class actions from Rogue, some of which will be ninjaesque already. Won't "only" 5 job actions be too few to get all/most the iconic FF ninja stuff? Katon, Hyoton, Huton, Doton, Raiton, Suiton, self destruct, leaving only a wood in place, and creating shadows etc. They also have enfeebling abilities as well. Some of these could be made into Rogue stuff, but certainly not the elemental ones.

[Monsalvato]

This kinda makes me wonder if the strict standardization they adopted during patch 1.1 and the class reform. Is it really good, or if it can become a negative boundary for developers?
I'm talking about the 17+5 actions model, which they respected for all classes if we exclude pet actions.
I think maybe this is too strict of a "rule" that they gave themselves.
Maybe one class feels perfect with 15+5 (whereas with the current model they'd be forced to "invent" 2 useless actions to reach the number of 17), or maybe another class could kinda get 19, but they can't because of the limit.
It's the same with job actions. Some might as well feel perfect with 4 whereas some other could use 6 or 7 actions.
Standardizing stuff is nice, but I wonder if it really won't create issues in the future.

"trying as much as possible" to give 17+5 to all classes is a thing.
Making it absolutely mandatory no matter what even without reasons, is another thing, no?

[Antanias]

Maybe a secret sect could pop up someplace in the world that practiced in the Rogue guild and found ways to further improve their craft and then it could become Thief later on down the line. Of course, then the biggest question would be to make Thief some sort of stealth tank or some sort of a healer? Having two DPS jobs branching from a DPS class would be odd now that I think about it.

[Gilraen]

Well, firstly, Yoshida's own words label rogue as XIV's thief, that the rogue's guild is made up of reformed thieves so likely no, no Thief Job. As for Ninja it will probably only have three elemental attacks, corresponding to thaumaturge's elemental attack spells as that's the most likely sub-class. It probably won't have "Self-Destruct" as that's too XI and Yoshida is trying not to make XI-2 if he can help it. Probably won't have "Decoy" either as that's so cliche' as to make anyone sane cringe. Utsusemi will probably also be a no-show as people will try to tank with it if given half the chance then complain as all heck when they can't due to no enmity generation moves. I think the most likely thing will be some manner of Backstab as evidenced by the Ninja jumping on Ifrit's head.

Having two DPS jobs branching from a DPS class would be odd now that I think about it.

I said the same thing in the other thread, but you just can't reason with some people.

[Monsalvato]

blahblah as that's too XI and Yoshida is trying not to make XI-2

I think the "error" in your reasoning is that you're thinking about the XI implementation of those abilities.
Just because Utsusemi in FFXI was a defensive move that allowed you to absorb a certain number of hits without taking damage, doesn't mean it has to be the same in XIV.
The concept is that "Utsusemi" is an iconic Ninja action, and it's about multiplying yourself with your "shadows".
It could be a DPS move in FFXIV for instance, similar to Mirror Image in WoW/Diablo if you follow.
Same for Mijin Gakure and several other Iconic Ninja things.
They don't have to be the same as FFXI, I'd actually be happier if they didn't.
They are core elements of the Ninja job (in all FFs/general japanese myths), and with so many iconic things having "only" 5 job actions sounds like it's gonna be really hard for them to achieve this goal.

[Monsalvato]

I said the same thing in the other thread, but you just can't reason with some people.

Your concern is quite understandable!
At the same time though, it wouldn't be THAT strange. Look other games, it happens pretty often there.
As long as those 2 DPS feel really different (magic DPS, a physical DPS, melee, ranged one... or simply just 2 completely different styles. Easy to make a class branch into 2 dps jobs and still feel like it makes sense).

The problem here, once again, lies in their 17+5 system which is way too strict.
When all of the branched jobs share the same core of 17 actions (that's 78% of the total number) and only have 5 different and unique abilities... it's gonna be REALLY HARD to make those 2 jobs feel "different".
Possible? Yes.
Easy? No.
So I completely share your sentiment but I think this is not a theoretical issue with "having 2 jobs from the same class" thing, rather a specific issue of FFXIV's 17+5 system.

[Lemuria]

Won't "only" 5 job actions be too few to get all/most the iconic FF ninja stuff?

No, it won't.

To further elaborate, Ninja will have some unique skills which will be used in combination with each other. Certain combinations of these skills will result in particular talents being used. Assuming that you get 5 of these skills and can use them in differing order that's a huge number of different potential combinations, and nothing preventing you from using several of the same skill in a row (at least in theory, no word as yet) for yet more combinations.

This was all announced in the big reveal, so feel free to trawl through the video for the nuggets of info.

[Exstal]

Utsusemi is iconic? It's basically Blink renamed. Which, funny enough, is a White Magic skill. So this foolish notion that it's an iconic Ninja move is a load of trash.

[Monsalvato]

So Ninja will get special Mudra "actions" like hand positioning in Naruto, or Runes, or whatever else you want to call them, and using combinations of these will produce different effects (for instance an Aoe ice based "Hyoton" attack, or a single target "Katon" attack, or an AoE enfeebling thunder based "Raiton" and so on)
Now that's a really cool and smart idea

I still think 5 is too small of a number, at least for some jobs (not just Ninja), but I guess we will just have to wait for the level cap increase (expansion) for that ^^

[Lemuria]

I still think 5 is too small of a number, at least for some jobs (not just Ninja), but I guess we will just have to wait for the level cap increase (expansion) for that

To give you some perspective, your genes have only 4 different parts yet the different combinations of those four number thousands upon thousands. It makes up the entirety of life on this planet. I really don't see 5 as being all that limiting myself.