New Classes and Bard, the need for a second job.

[Shurrikhan]

Honestly, the only one I can realistically see working, is Marauder => Dark Knight (Thaumaturge sub with access to Fire/Blizzard). First ability just needs to be "Increases damage taken X%, magic damage proportional to enmity level, magic attacks shed enmity.", then it works perfectly well with Marauders enmity related abilities and creates a viable system to cast nukes (something lacking in XI). Build up enmity, nuke. Use Storm's Path combo, Foresight, ToB, pull hate and do an absolutely devastating magic attack (presumably with its version of Flare/Holy).

Pugilist => Counter based tank could work I guess, since unlike Lancer its combos aren't dependent on direction, but everything else just wouldn't work. Bard doesn't have enough of a focus on Songs to make a Ranger type Job seem different since they'd both ultimately be DPS. Gladiator has far too many defensive abilities for anything but a tank to really work, likewise Conjurer has far too much healing spells. Thaumaturge basically is Black Mage, there isn't really anything else Thaumaturge can do, at best it could enfeeble, but that would work as well as Bard does.

I could definitely go for these, though I have to say the obvious wherein PGL is more positionally dependent than LCR. (LCR = 13.5 seconds' crucial positional dependence per minute; PGL = 55 seconds' non-crucial positional dependence per minute.) I really do like the idea of consuming enmity for bonus attack on DRK. I've seen some other suggestions taking it from LCR, due largely to BFB, and others using GLD where all of the defensive CDs are halved and turned into enemy offensives, as well, just as an aside.

If we are limited to two jobs per class though, I don't know if I want a DRK or Berserker coming from Marauder more though...

Given how secondary Jobs is actually something the developers have mentioned so much, I'd really love to hear from them as to how they'd actually go about it. If they plan anything like what I suggested earlier, that could make for an amazing Jobs adjustment patch. It could even make for Classes becoming more useful, strip Bard of Strait Shot, Raging Strikes, Misery's End, and Barrage (MP combo, Song, Song, same effect but for Songs instead of auto-attack) and you're not going to solo anything on that, not that you would on Bard already...

You know, maybe they could make Classes more useful by just nerfing Jobs base stats... We get a stats bonus when we're in a party, why not just nerf Jobs stats and buff that bonus substantially? On a non-tank Job without a tank in party? Enjoy getting two shotted. Would certainly do the job, but I don't think that would be a popular adjustment...

In reference to the bard ability-changeout example:
I'd still like to see some general job strength retained, personally. I don't think a job should become limited to a party role. They certainly shouldn't lose out on core class buffs or rotational factors just because they fall to support later (even if it would be returned to them in their support forms). I just think that it should be a specific, side-grade style of the class, which tends to better lend itself to party play, especially larger parties (8-mans, where your party's jobs already cover all forms of debuffs, etc.).

I feel like at the moment the stat bonus is the only thing that makes most jobs worthwhile at level 30, and often until level 40 or so. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing it reduced and base stats increased.

As to the general job style... I'm still a fan of retooling as many of the abilities as needed, as long as they follow a similar structure of abilities (3 basics on one side--ST, AoE, big ST, 3 basics on the opposite--ST slow, casterAoE bind, AoE bind, 3 DoTs that vary by duration, etc. as a THM example). You should still feel like you came out of the same class, even if your Fire spells are now compounding direct-HoT-hybrid spells and your Cure spells are Banishes.

Side-note: I really love when a job is able to perform two roles each near-fully, but not simultaneously, i.e. Bard's dps and support. The more it supports, the less dps it deals, but the more party-dps it causes, such that the net gain often, but not always, outweighs the personal loss. When you kill that 'not always' part, wasting mana on unnecessary songs not included, it reduces the interest of the support function itself, for me anyways. I feel like it should come with a compromise.

That's partly just by having gotten used to Bard though. For an opposite example, one could probably just use a mechanic on Bard that creates some sort of resource (a mote, or otherwise floating song-like / element-like thing) with actions, and can consume them for support functions with actions, such that support is less of a compromise (though singing would still be about timely resource management) so much as something they do naturally, with all actions. (Consume motes somehow related to Foe Requiem to instant-cast Foe Requiem (no immediate effect), unlock Mercy's End regardless of target health level, and cause those motes to create the Foe Requiem debuff for X duration on the target struck by that Mercy's End.)

[MartaDemireux]

Why couldnt Gladiator for instance be a full fledged job? I remember loving it in Tactics. Yet in XIV it's demoted to simply being a requirement for Paladin, not suitable or used in any other way.

Please look at it this way:

Each of the classes are simply groupings of a certain weapon or attacking style. Gladiator in the original Japanese text is literally "Sword skill user," Archer is "Bow skill user," Marauder is "Axe skill user," Lancer is "Spear skill user," Pugilist is "Wrestling/Grappling user," Thaumaturge is "Spell skill user," Conjurer is "Illusion skill user," Arcanist is "Tomoe skill user," and the newest class to the group, Rogue, is "Twinblade user." Yes PGL/ROG drop the "skill" kanji in order to preserve only using 3 kanji per class, one of them must be the "user/worker" kanji at the end.

To make these into English names they would be Swordist, Bowist, Axist, Spearist, Wrestler, Spellist, Illusionist, Tomoeist and Twinbladist. Those don't exactly roll off the tongue. The localization team had to come up with names for each of these skill sets and now we have what we have. Note how I called them skill sets there and not classes.

Essentially, a class is only a means to fuel a job and at the same time a job is, in the case of ACN for example, a specialized skill tree.

By leveling up Gladiator you're really not leveling up a standalone class/job but rather accruing skills to use from that weapon type/damage source. This was much more easy to understand in 1.0 before jobs came out as essentially you could swap every single skill between every single class. The idea was to level a class for the abilities you wanted and then use the abilities you wanted with your preferred weapon type. When they brought in jobs though they kept this relic and its new hindering ways.

So when you see Gladiator just know you are not really playing a standalone class/job but you are instead using that weapon type to fuel your strength in your specialized job. You're literally training yourself in that weapon, not that class.

[Erana]

Could I have a link for this bit of news?

(I'm not doubting it; it's just an important issue to me, and I'd like to see the full bit.)

Finally found that interview between 1UP and Yoshi P. Hope it helps everybody here. ^^

1UP: Okay, let's move onto the job system. Because each class can only become one job at the moment, people can't really see a big picture for the job system. Also, in the most recent update, you added class-only gear, and that only confused the matter more. People are wondering, "So am I supposed to use a job, or am I supposed to use a class?" How can we expect to see the job system to change in the future?

NY: First thing is that, currently, it's one class and it turns into one job. But the way that we designed the system is that this won't always be the case. It just happens to currently be the case.

For example - and this does not mean that this is going to happen - but for example, right now the gladiator will change his job to a Paladin. But maybe in the future a gladiator will also be able to change to Dark Knight. Again, this is a maybe... Not saying anything about Dark Knights. But maybe. Just so the players know that, just because there's only one job per class right now doesn't mean this won't change. The way we've designed the system is to allow for multiple jobs to come off of a single class.

As for the concept behind class-only gear, we hope to have, in the future, especially with 2.0, a larger variety of content, where you'll have very hardcore... You'll have your eight-man raids that are requiring a lot of strategy, and you'll want to have specific jobs to be able to concentrate on getting to and defeating the final boss. Yes, we'll want to concentrate on the jobs. But we'll also want to have more light, casual battle content in the future as well. And during this casual content, you'll want to be more... Maybe not as restricted to the job. You'll want to be able to have the benefits of being a class and using multiple abilities from lots of different classes. And so there isn't one argument, there isn't one right answer, that just because there's class gear... There are going to be some places where you'll want to have class gear and there will be some places you'll want to have job gear. We hope that by 2.0, there will be more content that will support both. Because currently, right now, there's really not a lot of content that's supporting that class-only gear. Hopefully it will become more defined in 2.0.

[Shurrikhan]

Finally found that interview between 1UP and Yoshi P. Hope it helps everybody here. ^^

Thank you for the post.

I just hope this concept (of multiple, rather than just two jobs per class, and class (rather than just job) value) is still in the works, since this interview was apparently made before the release of ARR (2.0 is still a future referent).

[Shurrikhan]

<snip>

Ahh, back when one's own class was just a matter of finding the mixture of counters, defenses, nukes, DoTs, debuffs, or whatever else suited your play, stats, and damage type (piercing, blunt, etc.)... or at least when that was the concept...

That said, even if mere weapon training was the original purpose of each "class", they have been granted specific identities beyond their weapons. Our "Swordsman" is not so much as a swordsman in general as a specific type of sword-and-shield infantry with hardy defense, and our axeman has specialized in overwhelming attacks, debuffs, and bloodthirst. In this sense, as irrelevant as such matters are, the localized versions largely seem more accurate. (Though now the actual implementation of Thaumaturge/Curse-user matches neither name.) As long as each "class" carries particular mechanics and buffs beyond the weapon itself, they no longer act in accordance to that system of <Weapons --> Specialized fitting use of weapons to accomplish an archetypal role>. They are real classes, even if being a class, rather than having the identity befitting titles of Gladiator or Marauder, means that you're basically just a blank slate with some connected abilities and access to quite a few more.