An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Rowyne]

When I played Aion as a Templar I had no problem dying for my team but I would have liked to keep it to a minimum. Dying in that game drove you into poverty but all that served to do was piss me off when I did die. I learned just as much as I do now, it was just more annoying.

Aion is the one modern MMO I've played that made me almost as paranoid about death as FFXI. Dying meant paying exorbitant amounts of money to a soul healer. There were times I was flat broke between that and the money it cost to level my armorsmithing (they used a work order system similar to crafting leves, but still required you to buy the materials and pay to train at each crafting tier, which became painfully expensive).

But I would still welcome a monetary cost over loss of exp any day.

If I wanted to play FFXI, I'd go back and play it. EXP Loss on death was my least favorite aspect of FFXI, and I couldn't be more against seeing it return. We now have gear damage, so let's toy around with that a bit more. There's no such thing as "DEATH," we just get knocked out, there's no way around suspending that disbelief - so harsh penalties for "DEATH" seem ridiculous. If, when we're knocked out, our gear takes a severe hit in durability, I'm all for that.

There are few comforts like knowing that your grind was worthwhile - that no one can take away the progress one has made. I like to solo, and I'd prefer not to be engaged in yet another time-sink by Behesting back what was once mine. Break my gear, instead. SP Loss for death is one on my very short list of "deal breakers" that will end my visits to Eorzea.

^ I agree 100%. I think this really gets to the heart of the matter for me.

MMOs all approach death penalties in different ways. Most of the older ones went at it from harsher angles. Exp loss, exp debt, corpse runs, even perma-death. But by today's standards, they're archaic. Times change, and we evolve. I think modern MMOs have taken a better look at risk vs reward. And most games have implemented a death penalty that is appropriate to the style of the game.

For example, some people think that World of Warcraft's death penalty is too lenient. You run back to your corpse in ghost form, resurrect, then go to a repair NPC and pay to fix your durability loss (gear damage). However, the game centers mainly around dungeons and raiding, where it is expected you will die a large number of times learning a boss fight. Especially in the newest expansion, where boss fights and mistakes are extremely unforgiving. Stand in the wrong place longer than 2-3 seconds and you're dead. As in, insta-death. The raid wipes. And you might wipe 15 times that night. An epically geared plate wearing tank is going to shell out upwards of 100 gold on a typical raid night for repairs. The death penalty fits because of the mechanics the game is built around.

I think FFXIV's death penalty is actually very well thought out. Gear should take an extra durability hit (if it's not already) because it's already a focus in the game. Hell, it's one reason I've had an incentive to choose the crafts I did, so that I can do my own repairs. And the weakness debuff and having to run back from the aetheryte is enough to potentially make you fail a leve. You care about your survival and keep from doing silly things, which is all a death penalty is designed to do, no matter how its implemented.

I'm honestly surprised those who played FFXI still think exp loss is a good idea. It may have had its place in FFXI, but it was a harsh punishment that did nothing but incite anger. You want to see someone go into a Jack Nicholson axe-wielding rage, watch someone who's lvl 75 delevel who's supposed to do endgame and now can't until they get their level back. In a game that forced you to spend time looking for a party, traveling out to a camp, and then hope the party didn't fall apart before you actually got some exp. Exp was the most precious commodity in the game, and it was so easy to lose. It made people afraid to take risks or explore or try anything that might get them killed. There was someone in my LS who actually deleveled 6 times just trying to get to Norg. There are beautiful places in Vana'diel I never got to see and always wished I could have. But playing for four years and still only getting to lvl 64 prevented that.

If an exp loss was implemented, we'd go back to the stigma of fear shadowing over us. People would point angry fingers and tanks/healers would be ostracized for making one critical error. We'd all assuredly be failing our leves waiting around for some nice Conjurer to come Raise us. Is that really the direction we want this game to take?

Yoshi-P has stated that alleviating player frustration and putting the fun back in the game is part of FFXIV's new mission statement. There's no reason to implement something that will assuredly incite a knee-jerk angry reaction, and even be a game-breaker for many. It just doesn't fit with the new direction that FFXIV is taking.

tl;dr - I'm fine with death penalties that cost us time or money, but make it appropriate to the style/mechanics of the game. XP is something we should never see taken away from us.

[Obsy]

^ THIS, Sweet Christ, this.

[Jabo]

The game is easy because the content is easy, not because there is no death penalty.

So making dying worse isn't making the game harder?
Strange opinion. For me it's realy the very first indicator of a games diffculty. (Demon Souls f.e.)
Or take Super Mario.
I mean, if you die and have to repeat the complete level it's a lot harder than letting you go on and simply lose 1 of 1000 addition lifes. (Prince of Persia)
It's cause you dont care if you do stupid stuff. A game where you can give a da.. how you play is easy. It's as simple as this.

Or they could make you wait 30 mins (the time it takes to get back 5000 SP) and nothing changes. How fun.

What is the difference between 5 or 30 min?
1. You dont fight 24/7
2. Something you already earned beeing taken from you is a comeplet different thing than something you maybe wanted to do been postponed.

In FFXI you either grouped or didn't play. There was no other choice, so of course it 'worked'. "Too bad" this game is different.

I dont see your point. In FFXI it certainly did not just work, because you hade no choices.
This would mean that we simply have to remove solo play to make the battlesystem suddenly good.

Also it isn't only a matter of helping people in the party. It is matter of an overall feeling that your help is worth something.

[Kurokikaze]

So making dying worse isn't making the game harder?
Strange opinion. For me it's realy the very first indicator of a games diffculty. (Demon Souls f.e.)
Or take Super Mario.
I mean, if you die and have to repeat the complete level it's a lot harder than letting you go on and simply lose 1 of 1000 addition lifes. (Prince of Persia)
It's cause you dont care if you do stupid stuff. A game where you can give a da.. how you play is easy. It's as simple as this.


What is the difference between 5 or 30 min?
1. You dont fight 24/7
2. Something you already earned beeing taken from you is a comeplet different thing than something you maybe wanted to do been postponed.


I dont see your point. In FFXI it certainly did not just work, because you hade no choices.
This would mean that we simply have to remove solo play to make the battlesystem suddenly good.

Also it isn't only a matter of helping people in the party. It is matter of an overall feeling that your help is worth something.

Making dying worse doesn't make the game harder. You just waste people's time. Introducing challenging encounters for players to partake in makes the game hard.

I'm sorry but I don't play the game all day to justify anything you are suggesting. You're idea and the reasoning behind them are just flat out awful.

Heres your suggestion: Punch yourself in the face everytime you die. If you do that enough the next time you'll be more cautious because your nose is broken.

[kukurumei]

tl;dr - I'm fine with death penalties that cost us time or money, but make it appropriate to the style/mechanics of the game. XP is something we should never see taken away from us.

Money as it stands currently is worthless, and durability is more worthless in terms of death. Repairing something at 10% is the same as repairing something at 74%, and given the fact you can repair via materials, it's static on some levels.

And if you want to increase it, like banning death-ers from using NPC, etc... it's the same pain.

People are avacating no XP lost for the sake of no XP lost. The "pain" has always got to be the same. XP is just an easy number. If they make it 1000 and it's too harsh, they can balance it to 500 or 200, or did what FF11 did and do raises or reraise buffs, or even no xp lost buffs, or WoW to erase XP debt.

I can make death penalty the ability to no be able to teleport for a day. How's that? too severe, tough, you should have voted for XP.

How about you die, and your armor break, lost your fancy armor, tough, you should have voted for something else.

It's the same result, you don't like pain, I get it, but playing with fire is a fact of life. There isn't that many ways to curb recklessness...because we know in the game world... people are a-holes.

This is how I hear it from a reality point of view
"Not the face, please anything but the face,
Not the nuts, anything but the nuts, it really hurts
Not the stomach, I need that tomorrow,
Not the biceps, I have to carry things tonight
Not the back, I need sleep, etc"

In the end, no matter where your pain is, it's has got to be something you don't like for it to be effective.

[CupDeNoodles]

Having anything short of just weakness is only a time sink. Why would anyone want more time sinks?

As of right now the weakness effect is there to prevent people from zerging their way through the game and I see no reason why there should be more added on top of it.

To those wanting harsher death penalties I have a suggestion, make an effort to NOT to die. I never understood the need to want to be punished. It doesn't register with me.

[Kurokikaze]

Money as it stands currently is worthless, and durability is more worthless in terms of death. Repairing something at 10% is the same as repairing something at 74%, and given the fact you can repair via materials, it's static on some levels.

....and having everyone needing to repair repeatedly after deaths would take money out of the economy and make it more valuable.

Are you thinking before posting?

[Rowyne]

...or WoW to erase XP debt.

Am I missing something? Does WoW = World of Warcraft in this statement? World of Warcraft does NOT have exp debt in any form. Yet, you've claimed so in at least three posts now.

[Seikninkuru]

I'm just curious why there are so many people who want to impose their will upon me. I haven't heard a good reason for why SP loss is necessary. All I have heard is it makes the game more scary, for YOU.

You want to be punished when you die that's fine, some people are masochists and it is their own prerogative to find enjoyment in that. Why not impose your own sort of death penalty. You could delete a piece of gear, you could stop playing for about 20 minutes since that's probably how long it'd take to get your SP back. You could stick your hand on an over burner, you could starve yourself for 24 hours. Sure, I'm partly joking about some of these, but I haven't heard a relevant point as to why there needs to be punishment for others when they die.

I'll be brutally honest, if there was XP/SP death penalty I would only group with a small group of people I could trust, killing the easiest mobs I could for the best SP/hr and I wouldn't be attempting any fight that might end up in my dying. Is that what you really want, I don't think that's the intention of the players advocating SP loss, but I'm not sure they realize the true ramifications of it.

It's being done away with in most games recently because it is un-enjoyable and serves little purpose other than being archaic and nostalgic for a decade ago.

[Jabo]

Making dying worse doesn't make the game harder. You just waste people's time. Introducing challenging encounters for players to partake in makes the game hard.

And again.
Demon Souls is considered way harder than Oblivion.
Price of Persia is considered way harder than Super Mario.
To additionally explain myself:
The Difficulty increase is because you need to die less often to archive something, making youre overall goal to die less.
And it is certainly more difficult to play this game if you "can" die only 1 time than beeing able to die 100 time in 1 day. (f.e.)
This effects your whole play style and so.

I'm sorry but I don't play the game all day to justify anything you are suggesting. You're idea and the reasoning behind them are just flat out awful.

Wanting a challing game, where people want to help eachother more is flat out awful?
I'm starting to get realy concerned about the game, if these are the kind of opinions that the developers are listening to.

Heres your suggestion: Punch yourself in the face everytime you die. If you do that enough the next time you'll be more cautious because your nose is broken.

And here I'm starting to get concerned about the forum, if people have attidues like that.
It's okay having other opinions... telling people there ideas are afwul, without an explanation or suggestions, and additionaly beeing rude is another...