Solutions to make dungeons slower and/or longer.

[Viridiana]

I don't get it. Why do we want dungeons to be longer?

[Urielparadox]

...

As I stated in the quote you quoted, which means you didn't read. I have no problem with long dungeons/ new players and teaching them how to do stuff, what to stun, ect.. I spend most of my time in game helping fc members and link shell members so I rarely do anything myself except for coil anymore. what I do have a problem with is needlessly slow run for no reason. I also state that I leave if the tank doesn't pull better, where as any one who comes out attacking is going to fight with the tank till they leave. I ask once nicely, if nothing happens I ask again and explain why. and if still nothing happens I leave. I eat the 30min so no one else in the party gets screwed, by a tank leaving. I'm pretty sure that says a lot compared to how many people just sit there and argue needlessly in the middle of a dungeon. I say this always first, no different "please pull at least 2 packs of mobs, a blm/smn's damage is at it's best when it's at 4+ mobs."


A tanks job is to keep mobs off of dps. The same logic can be applied to dps, my job is to damage. see I blizzard 3 the whole fight I never ran out of mp. thats damage? it's just as a faulty. Tanks are doing the same aoe hate generation whether they have 3 mobs or 5 so it's more work on dodging(in this case it's 1 more raptor you have to dodge. but it is not anything diff with weak mobs. my job as a blm is to atk multiple targets, though I have the ability to fight single targets so that my job isn't useless in 90% of endgame stuff(which it kinda is useless in the new coil), therefore I can't do my job CORRECTLY because the tank isn't doing their job correctly. Part of playing your job correctly is maximizing your partys efficiency, a blm using defensive cooldowns, physical dps using cooldowns to cure them self so healer doesn't, summoners manual controlling their pet on obey, none of these things are required to play these jobs, but if you aren't using you resource available to you. Especially when you have an animus axe as a war. You are not playing the job correctly. I'm not being a whiney b telling you to do OMG do a SR, no i'm simply asking for you to pull 2 groups of mob so that i'm not bored to death and being a wasted dps slot.

I have plenty of jobs to play on everything but my healers and bard are i89+ with levi/zenith weapons. If I want ot single target oI'll go on that job. also my argument works both ways, a tank who pulls an ass load more of mobs, when you have all single target classes with you. It's not paying attention to your party.

[Zaero]

Snip.

I read plenty. You want tanks to run -your- way, or you ditch. So....it's all about meeting your standard for a run. Try lowbie roulette sometime. Also, asking for 2 more groups sounds a lot different than your OP context.

Also, I main BLM (I notice you've 50'ed everything, so I understand you know the ins and outs of many roles). Yes, you have AOE capability, but you'll note there's a single target rotation, and a multiple target. I seem to be playing my role as a ilvl94 BLM with extreme primal wep just fine if things die, so ...yup I respectfully disagree.

Anyway, I feel my point has been confirmed, since the tone of your posts seem to have shifted significantly based on context. Thanks for the laughs.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

How about rather than altering dungeons for the sake of length (artificial or not), why not make guildhests/GH roulettes more substantial when it comes to tomes? "But won't that drive people away from dungeons/dungeon roulette?"

Guildhests if I recall, don't drop loot, nor are they viable XP for leveling - neither of which speed runners are running dungeons for as is. So in a sense, everybody wins there. By-the-numbers players who simply want to farm/hit weekly caps can do so quickly and efficiently, and the dungeon-faring crowd can enjoy their content however fast or slow they want to run it.

Also keep in mind, once people said they didn't want to be able to get relic weapons so quickly. . . then we got the Atma/Animus systems. Be careful what you wish for.

[Pots_Talos]

I'm all for longer/harder dungeons as long as they are put into their own category and give a higher reward. It would be nice to do a dungeon where pulling three trash mobs will wipe the party if not CC'd or handled accordingly.

[Alcyon1]

The tank's job is to keep the party from getting hit by mobs. It's not to "enhance your DPS", nor has it been that in any game I've played (FWIW).

Epic fail.
Next dungeon, I'll just around the group with my War. Eh, I'm keeping the party from getting hit by mobs !

As for teaching a tank to pull big, it takes time. I'll just (for argument's sake) assume you didn't give any pointers and rabidly yelled at them like a middle/high school football coach. Your posts here aren't doin' ya any favors to change my mind on that.

With an Animus, I guess he should have a "decent" idea how to pull at least 5/6 mobs.

[Sigurd_Volsung]

I love the overwhelming support for the Tanks here. I've had issues like this myself, that are usually solved by me trying to pull more then I can handle, wiping the party, and then the "pull more" QQrs hushing up. I've learned to handle the bigger pulls now, but I still don't feel like I should be forced to pull any method besides the one I feel like. So long as I hold aggro, and no one gets killed.

Nice to see the Tanks standing up for themselves. Very refreshing.

[Urielparadox]

....

so stop quoting me out of context? we are talking about lvl 50+ dungeons here and you pull out a low lvll? You are exactly the person you are claiming me to be. thanks for the laugh on that one. if you think your single target rotation on blm is worth anything compared to any other dps your wrong if you were right SE wouldn't be making adjustments to it, just because your doing damage doesn't mean your doing your job like I stated and someone else, again reading comprehension. If the updates are worth a damn then I won't have a problem with this., but needlessly adding 5-10min to a run is wasting everyone time.

Your job, no matter what role you play, is to maximize the party efficiency. Saying doing the bare minimum of your job is playing it is what I am saying is the issue, because your not your being a lazy ass and wasting everyone time. Teaching someone who learns, is not lazy it benefits everyone, so since my problem is laziness why do you think I wouldn't help people who don't want to be lazy? If this is that hard of a concept to understand then I have no more words to discuss with you and your hard head/troll. I main blm I know my single target rotation inside and out. I'm asking the tank to play properly pulling one set of mobs is not proper not only are your lowering your efficiency as a tank, your lowering the efficiency of your party, esp when you have a blm and a bard. Why are you lowering it? because your lazy that's it. Give me a reason for a tank to pull only 3 mobs, you havn't you are arguing just to argue and you never have a point.

I have gone in and got a first time i75 tank. I asked my question he said sure as long as you teach me, and I said no problem with that. when we got to the area b4 the second boss he pulled all 3 groups, and did a great job for a first time tank. This means next time he goes in this dungeon hes readily prepared for it, as well as learning new things as a tank that he had been wanting to learn, since people kept yelling at him for not sr'ing stuff.

[Urielparadox]

.,..
Nice to see the Tanks standing up for themselves. Very refreshing.

I'm not asking you to pull more then you can handle, and I also don't get mad at a new tank learning the bigger pulls. I was terrified to do high lvl dungeons on tank at first because I didn't wan't to be qqued at since I never was a tank during the old sr days. If the method you feel like is subpar why lower your standards.
YOU as the tank are making the whole party slow down and preform subpar, for you so that you don't learn? You actually say that i'm being rude by asking you to properly play your job, which I am more then willing to help with and patience for, and that asking for the tank to maximize the party efficiency?
Pot calling the kettle black, its rude for me to ask you to pull 5 mobs because I want to dungeon to move at the, in you words my pace, but really its the correct pace for the party set up. However it's ok and not rude for the tank to pull 3 mobs at once because they don't feel like pulling 5 evem though they are more then capable of it, and so because the tank said so that's the proper pace of the dungeon? its's the same argument you can't use it to justify yourself and discredit someone else. I have both tanks at 50 and generally do my roulette on them because I don't trust tanks anymore. There are 4 people in a party working together not 1, I'm not being selfish i'm just not going to stick in a group where 1 person is wasting everyone time.I'm asking a tank to look at the party set up and pull what they can handle based on the jobs in the party. unless your i64 or lower you can very easily handle 4-5 mobs at a time(not counting special mobs like in amdpador)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I've really no intention of dragging this out but, 1: You're starting to get a bit rude, and that's not necessary. And 2: While you have some valid points, they are, in fact, mostly opinion based. Someone who doesn't do medium to big pulls isn't just "wasting everyone's time". Perhaps they're ensuring they don't overwhelm themselves, if not the party? THAT, if anything, is "properly" tanking. Not to mention if tanks were meant to pull at least 5 mobs, they'd be grouped that way, don't you think?

Fact is, no matter how much it may help a tank to be better by learning to pull/manage larger pulls, it's STILL not an absolute standard for tanking. Maybe an accepted practice, but not a standard. You are essentially demanding others play to your preferences and calling it "efficiency". This simply isn't so. Tanks hold aggro and mitigate threats to the party. DPS attacks/supports as necessary. Healers heal, support, and even DPS if/when possible. That's honestly where it begins and ends. All else is opinion-based.