Yoshi-P confirms Ninja/Thief and gun-using class?

[Kitru]

This is one big collusion of misquotes getting misquoted...

Or it's just you not knowing what you're talking about.

I believe the xiv related quote was that *blink* tanking wouldn't be viable in ffxivarr.

He said it specifically when asked about whether ninja would be a tank, not whether it would be a blink tank. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's never mentioned anything about the mechanics that NIN will or could use. The only context in which he's discussed NIN was when he referenced the missing "stealth/scout type class".

And in xi, the devs didn't anticipate ninja being so popular as a tank. That game was much more of a sandbox environment than anything these days. Ninja gear was packed with enmity and evasion...ninja had barely the second highest evasion in the game and utsusemi...what else were they supposed to do other than absorb some hits? XI devs did strange things compared to modern mmo devs.

Ninja was only given tank gear *after* the player metagame had cemented them as tanks. The FFXI devs explicitly stated that they only ever intended NIN to be a DPS/debuffing class. Utsusemi was only supposed to be an ability to allow a NIN to survive a few attacks in the case that they drew aggro.

The very *idea* that NIN should be a tank class/job is ludicrous on the face of it, and nowhere in the course of any FF game has ninja been anything approaching a tank. The *only* reason that NIN was a tank in FFXI was the devs shortsightedness and obliviousness combined with a slow reaction and inattention to the player metagame. It's the exact same reason why SAM went from being a tank job to being a DPS job and why RDM went from being a generalist to a Refresh bot.

FFXI was an absolutely horribly designed MMO. They made so very many bad decisions and absolutely refused to admit that they made mistakes until it was too late for them to actually address them. Bringing up design aspect of FFXI as if it's something that should be emulated rather than treated as a demonstration of what *not* to do is just asking for a facepalm.

[Kirinichibon]

That's great. Link to the quotes please.

[Kitru]

Without NIN tank there would have been only one socially acceptable tank (PLD) out of 20+ jobs (perhaps 15+ at the time of NIN release)

PLD was the only viable tank because the FFXI devs were just so bad at actually designing classes properly. WAR was intended to be a viable tank as was SAM and RUN. The only reason that they *weren't* was because the FFXI devs were so bad at designing classes properly. If the FFXI devs actually knew what they were doing when they were designing classes, there would have been other viable tanks though, it should also be mentioned that the FFXI devs could never quite decide whether they wanted the game to be a sandbox or a trinity game, and it was obvious in their class design.

If the community forces you to play only as tank then that isn't a developer issue, it's a community issue.

Actually, it's a developer issue because, at the heart of it, the community is going to react to the effectiveness of a given class at a given role. If the devs design a DPS class and it ends up sucking as a DPS but makes a decent healer, the community is going to make people play said "DPS class" as a healer because, from a practical standpoint, that's what it is. The community doesn't make arbitrary decisions; it makes those decisions in response to what the developers have done. When the developers screw something up and whatever they designed ends up working in a completely unintended and illogical way, you can call it a community issue when the class ends up being something completely different from what was intended, but the root cause of it was still the devs screwing it up.

The more a developer builds against "sandboxing" (or in layman's terms builds a game so that the CONSUMER can't do anything creative themselves nor play in a way that's not exactly the same as 99% of other players) the more BORING, REPETITIVE, LACKLUSTER, UNORIGINAL, being forced to play an EXACT way (not fun at all IMO), etc., etc. that game will be.

Except that "sandboxes" are never balanced and never deliver the breadth of real options that people claim.

They're never balanced because there are simply too many options for the developers to actually do the comparative design work for. There's always stuff that the devs never expected to happen that the community takes up and abuses the crap out of. The only way to actually counteract this is to explicitly limit the viability of all but a scant few options such that the decision is already made for you.

You can claim that there are 462 (22 * 21) different job/subjob options in FFXI, but, when you get down to it, there were, at most, 30 different effective combinations because jobs had an extremely limited number of jobs that were actually effective subjobs for them. The benefit of "options" in sandbox MMOs always end up turning into ways that people can make themselves less effective than they could be purely because they don't want to be like everyone else. New options only end up being short term variations until the optimizers and theorycrafters have determined whether those options are optimal (wherein they either displace the existing optimal choice or are cast to the side).

Sandbox MMOs either end up providing a illusion of choice or a laughably unbalanced system. In any game where players actually have to compete or cooperate to do most content, balance becomes a helluva lot more important than the illusion of choice because the imbalance inherent in a crapton of options already limits the practical options to a tiny subset of the theoretical options that can be used to complete said content.

Limiting the number of classes allows developers to focus on actually making those classes *good*. You can bitch and moan about BLM not having all of the options that it did in FFXI, but you can be damned sure that it's a helluva lot more fun to play. You'd never get an Umbral Ice/Astral Fire type system in a sandbox MMO without it being completely borked. The same is true for Greased Lightning. Limiting options allows developers to improve the quality of those options which means that you end up with more practical options in the end. Plus, those practical options end up being a lot more complex tactically. The only playstyle complexity inherent in a sandbox class design is in your selection of classes; the fact that those selections have to be modular so that they can work together makes them bland as hell.

[OmegaNovaios]

PLD was the only viable tank because the FFXI devs were just so bad at actually designing classes properly. WAR was intended to be a viable tank as was SAM and RUN. The only reason that they *weren't* was because the FFXI devs were so bad at designing classes properly. If the FFXI devs actually knew what they were doing when they were designing classes, there would have been other viable tanks though, it should also be mentioned that the FFXI devs could never quite decide whether they wanted the game to be a sandbox or a trinity game, and it was obvious in their class design.

PLD wasn't the only viable tank, it was the only socially acceptable tank aside from NIN. WAR, SAM, RDM, BLU, DNC, RUN, BST and perhaps a couple others that I didn't really get into were actually VIABLE if you knew what you were doing, but most people didn't. Everything about the way you were "forced" to play FFXI was peer pressure and tradition. It had nothing to do with what was possible. It was the ultimate form of being conservative.

Actually, it's a developer issue because, at the heart of it, the community is going to react to the effectiveness of a given class at a given role. If the devs design a DPS class and it ends up sucking as a DPS but makes a decent healer, the community is going to make people play said "DPS class" as a healer because, from a practical standpoint, that's what it is. The community doesn't make arbitrary decisions; it makes those decisions in response to what the developers have done. When the developers screw something up and whatever they designed ends up working in a completely unintended and illogical way, you can call it a community issue when the class ends up being something completely different from what was intended, but the root cause of it was still the devs screwing it up.

No need to blow things way out of proportion for a hypothetical point when the real one isn't so drastic, and yes the community has a massive impact of the way people actually play whether or not the devs do something as intended or not as inteded (it doesn't matter). FFXI is a prime example, and it's harder to find in games with more restricitons. NIN could both tank or DPS. The community chose tank. RDM and BLU could do everything. The community chose refresher/heals (sometimes nukes) and DPS. DNC could tank, heal, and DPS. The community chose DPS. There are a LOT more situations like this that either I don't care to list or wasn't even aware of when I played. The fact is that the community will choose if the devs don't. The ISSUE is BOTH THE DEVS AND THE COMMUNITY need to broaden their horizons and accept other things otherwise MMOs won't ever change.

Except that "sandboxes" are never balanced and never deliver the breadth of real options that people claim.
They're never balanced because there are simply too many options for the developers to actually do the comparative design work for. There's always stuff that the devs never expected to happen that the community takes up and abuses the crap out of. The only way to actually counteract this is to explicitly limit the viability of all but a scant few options such that the decision is already made for you.

MMOs take a long time to develop. They have plenty of time to balance many options if they have a separate team completely focused on that before and and after launch. WoW was the "most successful" MMO with FEW options and they couldn't balance anything to save their life over the course of 10+ years. Evatually they scrapped skill trees and then later they scrapped role trees. That's a dev issue. Now WoW has extrememly restricted options and it's horrible compared to what it once was and it's still LOSING subs.

You can claim that there are 462 (22 * 21) different job/subjob options in FFXI, but, when you get down to it, there were, at most, 30 different effective combinations because jobs had an extremely limited number of jobs that were actually effective subjobs for them. The benefit of "options" in sandbox MMOs always end up turning into ways that people can make themselves less effective than they could be purely because they don't want to be like everyone else. New options only end up being short term variations until the optimizers and theorycrafters have determined whether those options are optimal (wherein they either displace the existing optimal choice or are cast to the side).
Sandbox MMOs either end up providing a illusion of choice or a laughably unbalanced system. In any game where players actually have to compete or cooperate to do most content, balance becomes a helluva lot more important than the illusion of choice because the imbalance inherent in a crapton of options already limits the practical options to a tiny subset of the theoretical options that can be used to complete said content.

The biggest illusion is the MMO in general. Sure you can look past your options and see the end of the road, but without those options the end of the road is already within sight. What good is there in a game when merely eliminating skill trees, subjobs, cross class skills, and adding in other limitations just so people can't copy a build when people just copy a play style instead. You can just go to YouTube and watch how to beat said content on your class, mimicking every action at every second. When you enter a dungeon that you will already know exactly what will happen and how everything will play out. When you see a BLM enter your party and you already know his EXACT optimal rotation and if he doesn't follow that then he is just hindering you. Perhaps balanced, but what is so special about this kind of MMO?

[rex1976]

i just assumed that the dev team would put out a tank class... there are many reasons that the game needs another tank class... my choices for speculating on wich of the 3 will be the new tank class are ninja, thief, and musketeer? that being said i jumped to the conclusion that ninja would be most viable as a tank class because alot of people enjoyed playing a ninja tank in ffxi. you clearly enjoyed nothing about ffxi... assuming that you agree a tank class will be added wich of the 3 is it most likely to be then oh wise one?

[abzoluut]

So has Ninja actually been confirmed, or is this just another FFXI/NIN discussion, which is pointless and does not add to this thread..

As far as I know, Yoshi confirmed a dagger job. NIN use kunai right? Or do we get a dagger class with a NIN job? Either way, Im hyped!!

[Kicha]

Though nothing has been officially confirmed as far as what the actual jobs are, we do know what weapons these said jobs will use, and he speculation of NIN is coming from the story in 2.2. NIN seems the be the obvious choice/reference, though it is yet to be seen if they will be using daggers, kunai, or katana.

[abzoluut]

Yeh, the storyline does make us believe we will get a dual wield, stealthy job. I just hope they don't add two dps.. We need tanks and another healer would not hurt.

[Coth_X]

i just assumed that the dev team would put out a tank class... there are many reasons that the game needs another tank class... my choices for speculating on wich of the 3 will be the new tank class are ninja, thief, and musketeer? that being said i jumped to the conclusion that ninja would be most viable as a tank class because alot of people enjoyed playing a ninja tank in ffxi. you clearly enjoyed nothing about ffxi... assuming that you agree a tank class will be added wich of the 3 is it most likely to be then oh wise one?

There is a quest in 2.2 where you have to help move some "old armor" that's been passed down in the generations, and you have to pick up scales that fall off the armor.

Samurai is implied here, but we don't actually get to see the armor.

[Maero]

I don't think Nin will be a tank, i could be wrong.
I would think more that Dark Knight will be the new tank, no?