Rank cap increase every 1-2 years discussion thread

[Brotech]

Again, I am NOT for horizontal progression in this game.
And I apologize for the format, I had to do it that way to keep it under 10000 characters, so it would actually let me post it.

Now;
I'm going to use the example from the Physic's post.

Monks burning hand. Its a rare skin of weapon that actually puts a tattoo on your hands and arm in the shape of fire.
stats
141 attack
160 accuracy
180 crit rate
160 parrying
+3 evasion +3 dex

Ok so thats the best in the game, What you do to keep horizontal progression working and valid with new items is NOT the following.
"Iron Fists looks like a metal arm sheath with some mechanical tech accents

stats

170 attack
160 acc
175 crit rate
190 parrying
+4 vit +4 str"
You don't ever ever ever ever do this.
Especially if you don't want to invalidate the items from before. What you do to make side grades is make weapons like the 3 or 4 below.

120 attack
160 accuracy
180 crit rate
200 parrying
+4 evasion +1 dex

131 attack
170 accuracy
150 crit rate
120 parrying
+2 str +2 vit

190 attack
150 accuracy
170 crit rate
110 parrying
+4 str

None of those is clearly the best, but each is viable for different features, someone wants to be straight up dd, take the last, want to be high eva tank pick another, none of them overpowers the original, nor does any of them become instantly useless.
Poor planning and bad game design prevents horizontal progress.

And as per the comment there should never be "End game" well that's just ludicrous. You cannot feasibly design a game with no end. You can create open endings, and closed endings, but there will always be an end point.

And again for clarification because I don't think Auction Girl actually reads anyone elses posts.

I DO NOT WANT HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION FOR THIS GAME. I AM PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE. HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION WILL NOT WORK FOR THIS GAME IN ITS CURRENT STATE IN MY OPINION.

[Duelle]

This is exactly why I quit wow. I want to make that clear here just for the sake of the developers. There are quite a bit of people fed up with the constant upheaval, fundamental changes, etc, that most mmos indulge in. If there is one asset that seems to go completely unoticed by developers, it's the emotional attachment people can give to their characters, items they worked hard for, classes, etc. Emotional attachment creates loyalty, and loyalty keeps people in a game.

I don't make the connection here, seeing as my characters stayed the same through the mechanics changes. And the big changes to me meant that ret paladins went from lolret to actually viable in endgame content. So yeah, I'm not going to agree with you on that.

And for comparison's sake, I'm still waiting for Red Mage to become melee viable in FFXI in group content.

Blizzard to it's credit on WoW screwed up a lot but also spent a lot of resources making it what it is. Not many other companies can do that, and those that did try it end up failing badly because following blizzard doesn't mean you are blizzard.

Blizzard screwed up a lot, specially with the hybrid classes. I wasn't the only paladin player that was mad at lv60 when I found myself having to heal and only heal in raids to actually see endgame content.

By the same token, SE screwed up a lot with FFXI, and rather than correct their mistakes in design, they left said mistakes alone and become parts of standard gameplay. That is a LOT worse than spending time shuffling things around in preparation for a level cap raise and an expansion pack.

[Starlord]

1 year- 5 rank increase
2 years- 10 rank increase

6 years later...

Outcome- 30 Ranks/Levels which Equate to Rank/level 80 in 6 years

It took FFXI about that much time before they increased it to level 99 >.> lmao

so really when you look at this.. if they do it like what I described I don't see a problem.. but then again its my opinion so =)

[Chezen]

I don't make the connection here, seeing as my characters stayed the same through the mechanics changes. And the big changes to me meant that ret paladins went from lolret to actually viable in endgame content. So yeah, I'm not going to agree with you on that.

You don't have to agree with me on it. They were the reasons I left.

Messing around with fundamental game mechanics to that degree for the sake of endgame is playing with fire. How many times do you see people say, "I liked TBC". or "I liked vanilla". Not "I liked wow". Because each expansion changed the game so much as to make it unrecognizable to the first. When you write a book, and print it, you don't rewrite the first book for the sequel to match. You make the sequel compliment the first.

[AuctionGirl]

For your information I read all of your posts, and I feel like you aren't understanding mine from a business standpoint. I could care less if I get everything I want, I want the game to grow, and enjoy the parts of the game I like. Without players its harder to enjoy those parts. I'm glad a lot of you are on board with the vertical progression, because horizontal will kill off the game quicker than vertical will.

Trying to do too much horizontal with each new cap increase will lead to a failure too, its best if they keep a tight strict schedule, like 6 months, since true hardcores will finish most of that in 2-3 months, and the average/casuals will complete it 6-12 months. Hardcores tend to be able to grind the same content more times before they are bored with it, but average/casual players want to repeat those contents as little as often, and if they never run out of new content to do/grind/attain, then they will be longer subscribers.

Brotech: I agree with your options to the weapons, imagine if every 6 months, with the 5 rank increase there was 4 new weapons all kinda like the ones you choose, so you don't only have 1 new weapon to get, but 4 new weapons if you want options. If you only increase it 5 ranks every 6 months, it gives hardcore/average/casual players all the chance to get their classes up those 5 ranks, hardcores will do more classes, but casuals can still enjoy the classes they want and keep them up to do the new "end game" I mean "Current Cap" content. When you consider something end game, you are considering you are finishing the game. This is all in how you perceive this, and if you know in 6 months there will be NEW stuff, then its really not end game right? Its just current capped stuff. Like these rank 50 NM's they arent end game, the dodore doublet is not end game crafting, its only current cap best stuff. You should always expect to grow in the game vertically. Horizontally is just as important, but too wide horizontally and you kill a game making it boring to more players.

[CrstyCaptin]

Hate the rank increase idea myself. I liked XI because the cap was 75 for years. I don't want a need to level again every expansion and to have previous gear outdated by the new stuff. If I did I'd play WoW. Carrying merits over to increase stats or other things including new abilities would be great. Really would like some feed back on this regarding if they'll go through with it. Personally, this is a deal breaker and I'll leave XIV now if they plan on being a WoW clone.

[AuctionGirl]

Rank increases != WoW Clone

If you are smart about the rank increases then its overall better (huge increases are bad, keep em small like 5 ranks at a time), as explained before WoW Destroys all previous content, keep rank caps on the older content + changing drops within it, will keep old content as good as new content while allowing for progression and advancement of characters.

[Physic]

Again, I am NOT for horizontal progression in this game.
And I apologize for the format, I had to do it that way to keep it under 10000 characters, so it would actually let me post it.

Now;
I'm going to use the example from the Physic's post.

Monks burning hand. Its a rare skin of weapon that actually puts a tattoo on your hands and arm in the shape of fire.
stats
141 attack
160 accuracy
180 crit rate
160 parrying
+3 evasion +3 dex

Ok so thats the best in the game, What you do to keep horizontal progression working and valid with new items is NOT the following.
"Iron Fists looks like a metal arm sheath with some mechanical tech accents

stats

170 attack
160 acc
175 crit rate
190 parrying
+4 vit +4 str"
You don't ever ever ever ever do this.
Especially if you don't want to invalidate the items from before. What you do to make side grades is make weapons like the 3 or 4 below.

120 attack
160 accuracy
180 crit rate
200 parrying
+4 evasion +1 dex

131 attack
170 accuracy
150 crit rate
120 parrying
+2 str +2 vit

190 attack
150 accuracy
170 crit rate
110 parrying
+4 str

None of those is clearly the best, but each is viable for different features, someone wants to be straight up dd, take the last, want to be high eva tank pick another, none of them overpowers the original, nor does any of them become instantly useless.
Poor planning and bad game design prevents horizontal progress.

And as per the comment there should never be "End game" well that's just ludicrous. You cannot feasibly design a game with no end. You can create open endings, and closed endings, but there will always be an end point.

And again for clarification because I don't think Auction Girl actually reads anyone elses posts.

I DO NOT WANT HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION FOR THIS GAME. I AM PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE. HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION WILL NOT WORK FOR THIS GAME IN ITS CURRENT STATE IN MY OPINION.

what im saying in my post is that you still have horizontal weapons with vertical development, and when you make the new gear you make a new version of the weapon that is higher level, and has different stats, but uses the old one.

Yes it makes your old gear obsolete, but it gives you a way to upgrade that obsolete gear, for less effort than getting the all new fancy one. In this respect, your gear progress, and though it is obsolete, it is not a waste.
When you compare the upgraded weapon with the new special drop, you see that they have different bonuses. the new drop is not exactly better.

The key here, is you dont destroy the old content, you make it a stepping stone. People who like collecting and horizontal progression will get both, some will get one just for the skin, and make it better because they like it. Some will genuinely prefer certain stats over others.

Its basically like in 13 where they had like 10 weapons all gotten at various levels, all worthwhile for certain playstyles/roles endgame. the highest tiered ones needed the least upgrading, but when upgraded, all had a different stat spread. You only need to do this for extremely special gear, some gear is designed to have a shelf life.

[Brotech]

Rank increases != WoW Clone

If you are smart about the rank increases then its overall better (huge increases are bad, keep em small like 5 ranks at a time), as explained before WoW Destroys all previous content, keep rank caps on the older content + changing drops within it, will keep old content as good as new content while allowing for progression and advancement of characters.

And this is the end point. If they do it the right way it will work. If they don't it'll kill the game. Too many games try to fill the same shoes as WoW, and don't make it. FFXI for a long time filled the void that existed. Most people came to this game to find that Void filler again. At the moment that void is still empty, and if they do it wrong, that void will continue to exist. WoW while being the most populous, most money making MMORPG out there, will never fill that void. However, depending on how it is done, this game will die like all the others.

[AuctionGirl]

There are many reasons why someone would want to play an MMO. Below are some of the reasons...

1) To be the best of XYZ class on your server/game.
2) To have the best possible weapons/armor
3) To be the best crafter in the game
4) To be the best gatherer in the game
5) To play with friends in a team environment
6) To make new friends and help them
7) To grind, because you love to grind
8) To challenge yourself with figuring out new strategies
9) To try to do things others cant
10) To enjoy the detail that was put into the game
11) To max all your classes to the highest ranks
12) To obtain every skill/spell possible
13) To create your own strategies on how to beat things
14) To show off your e-peen
15) To achieve your next goals in character progression
16) To be able to make your own stuff (self sustainable)

I'm sure there are plenty more I left off and chances are you will have more than 1 of those in the reasons why you play an MMO.

With ONLY Horizontal Progression, you soon limit the amount of players types you are targeting.

With BOTH Horizontal & Vertical Progression, you have the ability to target every player type in the game.

If the vertical progression is too slow, you will lose players. So making sure vertical progression keeps at a constant, and horizontal progression fills in the blanks. This will lead to the most successful game.

You have to be careful with implementation of the new content to be able to reuse some of the old, as to keep it all important. This gives new players things to do, along with old players helping the new players or just doing it cause it was fun.