Battle Reform: Auto-Attack (06/30/2011)

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Sometimes I wonder if some of you ever failed reading comprehension.

You're the one who doesn't understand what I'm saying. Every other class (aside from mages) will have their basic attacks automated (because, you know, Auto Attacks are basic attacks) while we still have to manually press ours. Simple enough for you?

Simple. Yes. Correct? No.

The issue is: AA in FFXIV is NOT for DPS, it's taking one basic attack and making it automatic so you can build TP. More TP = More DPS. The other games you use as your 'examples' don't use TP and so they are flawed in basing a comparison to them. As far as AA, only 1 attack per melee class is being taken away. This leaves us with 3 (at least for a PGL with Light Strike, Pummel, and Flurry) to build TP so we can DPS. Ranged classes like Archer, and Mages aren't having anything taken away, but instead are just adding on melee AA.

AA != DPS
AA = Less spamming

[Capita]

what exactly is it you consider AA? automated attacks? or do you mean basic attacks? I can see you arguing about having to actually press buttons yourself, but aside from that AA is not doing anything different in this game.

You may have to press more buttons on archer, thats all not having ranged AA means in this game. if you have a problem with it, its because you dont like pressing buttons, not because its going to some how gimp archers.

How can it gimp archers?

Auto Attack is exactly what it is. It's a basic automatic attack that does basic damage. It's basically what Light Shot is. Abilities are attacks that have bonus damage and are limited in use by either cooldowns or energy consumption.

Melee classes get Auto Attack. It's a free attack that's separate from abilities. Archers get a melee Auto Attack but not a ranged one. At range, our basic attack has to be manually pressed and has a cooldown. Why should we have to spam our basic attack when other classes get theirs automated?

Even if it's not for more DPS, it just adds more unnecessary tedium to the Archer class.

Let's assume AA does basic damage and builds TP. Now let's assume LS does basic damage and builds TP. Both attack at the same rate (1-2 seconds). Now imagine your buddy with AA is chilling there waiting for his TP gauge to go up while we frantically mash our LS just to keep up with his TP gauge.

It's just extremely inconvenient. Can you honestly tell me why you think a ranged AA would be a bad idea?

[Rentahamster]

Why should we have to spam our basic attack when other classes get theirs automated?

Because that would drastically change how the class is supposed to work.

(and if you play archer by "spamming" your basic attack, you're doing it wrong)

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Auto Attack is exactly what it is. It's a basic automatic attack that does basic damage. It's basically what Light Shot is. Abilities are attacks that have bonus damage and are limited in use by either cooldowns or energy consumption.

Melee classes get Auto Attack. It's a free attack that's separate from abilities. Archers get a melee Auto Attack but not a ranged one. At range, our basic attack has to be manually pressed and has a cooldown. Why should we have to spam our basic attack when other classes get theirs automated?

Even if it's not for more DPS, it just adds more unnecessary tedium to the Archer class.

Because you have an additional mechanic to consider: Ammo. You would be burning twice as much of it with an AA

[Physic]

Obviously everything about AA is speculation due to the fact that it's not out yet. I'm merely voicing my opinion that forcing a melee AA on a RANGED class is redundant. It has nothing to do with how well I know my class. It's a genuine concern from a person who has played every kind of ranged class AS a ranged class.

And to the person saying I want to play WoW, no. The one thing WoW did right was balance the Hunter class around being able to shoot their main weapon's AA at a distance, and being forced to melee at close range. Using it as an excuse to bash WoW is juvenile. Give a game its credit.


Sometimes I wonder if some of you ever failed reading comprehension.

You're the one who doesn't understand what I'm saying. Every other class (aside from mages) will have their basic attacks automated (because, you know, Auto Attacks are basic attacks) while we still have to manually press ours. Simple enough for you?

ok, you just dont want to press buttons, you were making it sound like it was going to have some other effect an lower your ability to dps in endgame or something.

As archer stands, with multishot and trifurcate, there is a big advantage to not shooting all the time. you can get more ACC and damage which also equals more tp (tp is damage based) so essentially you get more ACC damage and TP by using multishot and trifurcate with buffs. if it fires off shots randomly this screws that up, if you make it so buffs dont effect AA attacks, you would have to use close shot, which has less range, or nothing until you get heavy shot later. Heavy shot uses more stamina, so one can assume it will have a longer cool down time in the new system. Also you stop every time you shoot on archer.

Combining all these you see that in this game, AA would not help archer, it would only limit its playstyle and choices. And since archer is currently one of the most loved classes, maybe they shouldnt remake the whole entire basic mechanics of archer to fit it into an AA world.

[Corrderio]

what do you mean by a charge system.

In FFXI Corsair's ability "Quick Draw" (QD) was on a charge system. When I use QD I use a charge, and when that happens the ingame timer builds up that charge again (1 min. per charge without merits). QD is also capped at 2 charges, once I hit the cap on charges the countdown timer doesn't function.

So I could see the system work similar in XIV. Multishot would work the same way, except I'd just nock an arrow.

[Starlord]

Because that would drastically change how the class is supposed to work.

(and if you play archer by "spamming" your basic attack, you're doing it wrong)

Sometimes I wonder.. if he ever played as a Ranged class before.. just saying he does... but meh who know right? He wonder why some people have reading comprehension problems? Or maybe perhaps he can't Comprehend himself that he has to say others can't Read :/. Smells like a personal Attack to me.... :/ oh well

[Capita]

Because you have an additional mechanic to consider: Ammo. You would be burning twice as much of it with an AA

That's the tradeoff. Ammo usage is a given, and it's easy enough to compensate for.

Because that would drastically change how the class is supposed to work.

(and if you play archer by "spamming" your basic attack, you're doing it wrong)

I don't currently "spam" my basic attack. I'm speaking strictly in terms of post-1.18. How the class is "supposed" to work is neither up to me or you, which is exactly why we have these debates.

ok, you just dont want to press buttons, you were making it sound like it was going to have some other effect an lower your ability to dps in endgame or something.

As archer stands, with multishot and trifurcate, there is a big advantage to not shooting all the time. you can get more ACC and damage which also equals more tp (tp is damage based) so essentially you get more ACC damage and TP by using multishot and trifurcate with buffs. if it fires off shots randomly this screws that up, if you make it so buffs dont effect AA attacks, you would have to use close shot, which has less range, or nothing until you get heavy shot later. Heavy shot uses more stamina, so one can assume it will have a longer cool down time in the new system. Also you stop every time you shoot on archer.

Combining all these you see that in this game, AA would not help archer, it would only limit its playstyle and choices. And since archer is currently one of the most loved classes, maybe they shouldnt remake the whole entire basic mechanics of archer to fit it into an AA world.

Every other class has "On hit" effect buffs, including the ones who are getting AA. It's not difficult to change it from "On hit" to a short timer so that it doesn't randomly get used up.

And we don't know if AA will effect endgame DPS yet. It's an assumption on both of us whether it will or it won't. If it doesn't, then it's just a matter of inconvenience. If it does, then it's a matter of balance.

[Capita]

Sometimes I wonder.. if he ever played as a Ranged class before.. just saying he does... but meh who know right? He wonder why some people have reading comprehension problems? Or maybe perhaps he can't Comprehend himself that he has to say others can't Read :/. Smells like a personal Attack to me.... :/ oh well

Would you like to see my ranged classes in the various games I've played? Only reason I'm not 50 in this game is by choice, not because of lack of skill or understanding of the class.

So please, enlighten me as to your interpretation of the ranged physical DPS niche.

[Jennestia]

Put multishot on a charge system like quick draw from FFXI. Problem solved.

Too bad people would cry rivers of blood at the mere thought of FFXI mechanics in XIV.