Tanks/Threat/lowlevels Please fix this.

[Spoekes]

i sometimes wish they would just give flahs a little damage, just so that some numbers come up.
Often in low level dungeon i feel like tanks don't use it because they think it suxx because it does no damage.

[Coth_X]

That's cause bad tanks/new tanks, don't know how the aggro bars work when looking at their target. If they flash, they'll notice the aggro bars change.

It's just in my experience, a lot of plds run through the pre50 dungeons, and only flash once at the beginning. When they need to treat it like OP and flash a few times to build up solid starting aoe enmity.

I also suspect, that some tanks feel like they need to do dmg exclusively to tank(to my understanding, current WoW is like this), where my sole focus first and foremost is that I'm number one on the enemies list, and dmg can come as long as I won't lose hate.

[MythToken]

Its actually pretty hard to hold hate as a low lvl tank. Especially if you arnt over geared. But even as i92 warrior you just don't have any options. Yes we have overpower at 12, but thats about it and you can easily run out of tp. If there is a halfway decent goon in your group, he can easily pull threat off of you. No butchers block = shit dps I can't speak for paladins but im sure they have their own problems.

[Daniolaut]

Out of curiosity cause I've been with some plds that couldn't hold hate. Overgearing is a problem, but for multipulls, how many flashes are you doing? And are you doing the multipull flash rotation? Most of the time, the pld runs in flashes once, and then starts comboing. Instead i've always done flash x3, then riot blade combo with a flash interwoven in.

I ask, because I don't have this problem and I notice you have reached 50 so overgearing should be even less of an issue with you.

Unless something changed very recently, I haven't had any issues tanking with pld/gld in low level content.

Firstly I would like to note again that I stated that I basically never lose threat as long as i'm paying attention .

Secondly what i'm saying here is that its boring to play Paladin during low levels because the skills given seem pointless and boring. I am asking that they adjust the level at which Shield Oath is given, swapping it with Sword Oath since sword oath is an OT mechanic...

How did you manage the mobs? If you are synced down you shouldn't lose hate at all. The times low level tanks lose hate are those non synced ones, which are leveling themselves up paired with DPS who are like i90++ synced down, but still can be managed.

Engage with your lob or tomahawk, throw in 2-3 flash/overpower. If both your DPS are capable of AoE spam such as BRD/BLM them you might want to throw in one more flash/overpower before cycling your 1-2-3 combo. Like for example in a 3 mob pack, on the mob marked #1, I would say for example, Fast Blade + Savage Blade it then Rage of Halone on mob #2. Then Fast Blade on mob #2, Savage Blade + Rage of Halone on mob #3, then go back to check on mob #1. Is it dying, say like less than 40% HP or going to die in less than 4-5s? If so, I'd just stun it and move on to other mobs.

I main a BRD and PLD as first choice alternate, I didn't have issues. I've also just finish leveling my WAR to 50 and applied the same principles and even paired with high level synced down DPS, doesn't have hate issues.

I would just like to say I appreciate your attempt to try and suggest how to tank, but having played this game since 1.0 and cleared all the content up to 2.2 as well as some of the 2.2 content i believe I understand the tanking mechanics. Again, i was state that PLD level sycned at 30- 40 it senseless completely because we are only given an Off tanking mechanic (sword oath) which makes no sense because there is no Off tanking content to be had at those levels.

Its actually pretty hard to hold hate as a low lvl tank. Especially if you arnt over geared. But even as i92 warrior you just don't have any options. Yes we have overpower at 12, but thats about it and you can easily run out of tp. If there is a halfway decent goon in your group, he can easily pull threat off of you. No butchers block = shit dps I can't speak for paladins but im sure they have their own problems.

I would like to note here that i specifically stated that warrior needs no adjustments. I have fun as warrior except in high level content because i feel PLD is a much more efficient tank, at which point i'm getting into personal taste.

Again i will restate, the issue i'm asking be addressed is the level at which Paladin receives Shield Oath. It makes no sense to obtain an Off tanking skill at a level where there is no off tanking content.

[Spoekes]

Don't get me wrong, i would like to see the oaths (is this the propper plural? ^^) swapped to.

But what would this do for

the skills given seem pointless and boring

I just wonder what skills at the higher levels you get that make a PLD "less pointless and boring", apart from shieldoath, which, imo, is good, but not very entertaining?

[Kitru]

Secondly what i'm saying here is that its boring to play Paladin during low levels because the skills given seem pointless and boring. I am asking that they adjust the level at which Shield Oath is given, swapping it with Sword Oath since sword oath is an OT mechanic...

Honestly, the "but I suck when I level sync" argument doesn't really hold water since you can tank perfectly fine. It's not as if every DPS and healer suddenly has their enmity skyrocket when they get their job. Nor does the "but it's for off-tanking and there's no offtanking content" argument hold water because, if that were true, SwO would be your level 50 job ability. SwO is not an offtanking stance so much as a DPS stance. If you're actually *tanking* anything, you're going to have ShO on (which is what offtanking actually is; it's tanking stuff while not being the main tank, which is a far cry from DPSing because you don't need to tank anything atm).

The "real" argument is that PLD should get their tank stance at 30 before WARs get their tank stance at 30. The issue with this is that WARs get Defiance at 30 because every other job skill they get is contingent upon it. The devs likely intended for tanks to get their tank stances later than 30, but the design of WAR precludes that so they get to break the rules.

My guess as to why the devs provide SwO at 30 and ShO at 40 is that they expect that, if PLDs got Shield Oath right away, when they got SwO, they would never use it. Either that or they recognized that you're not liable to use or even acknowledge your damage stance on a tank job if you get your tank stance first. By giving you 10 levels where your only stance is SwO, you're basically forced to use it and at least see a bit of its functionality (which is, sadly enough, largely hidden because it only buffs your auto-attacks and doesn't actually increase those so much as add an extra hit to each of them).

No matter what the devs intended though, I really don't see much issue in the first place. There isn't a pressing need from an enmity standpoint to give PLDs ShO instantly because enmity problems basically vanish once you get RoH. From a survivability standpoint, it's not really problematic because PLD has a much stronger CD suite than WAR at that point which is more than enough to offset the benefits of Defiance. If anything, SwO is probably more useful to PLDs than ShO would be at 30 because it increases their damage, which speeds up kills, which gets you to level faster. ShO is there for survivability and enmity generation, neither of which should be anything approaching an issue when you're leveling.

[tdogg]

Newbie question - what's the 1-2-3 combo?

[Kitru]

Newbie question - what's the 1-2-3 combo?

For PLDs? Fast Blade>Savage Blade>Rage of Halone. It's the only t3 combo that PLDs have.

[Versiroth]

Newbie question - what's the 1-2-3 combo?

For you, it's Fast Blade, Savage Blade, Rage of Halone. A comboed Rage of Halone is your biggest threat ability and it also debuffs the enemies strength.

[Daniolaut]

Don't get me wrong, i would like to see the oaths (is this the propper plural? ^^) swapped to.

But what would this do for

I just wonder what skills at the higher levels you get that make a PLD "less pointless and boring", apart from shieldoath, which, imo, is good, but not very entertaining?

Sword Oath is the skill i'm referring to that is pointless and boring when i level sync.

The other skills are fine and enjoyable when i sync, but are less effective without shield oath. If they switched them i would enjoy syncing more. Any other content post 40 is enjoyable. thank you.

Honestly, the "but I suck when I level sync" argument doesn't really hold water since you can tank perfectly fine. It's not as if every DPS and healer suddenly has their enmity skyrocket when they get their job. Nor does the "but it's for off-tanking and there's no offtanking content" argument hold water because, if that were true, SwO would be your level 50 job ability. SwO is not an offtanking stance so much as a DPS stance. If you're actually *tanking* anything, you're going to have ShO on (which is what offtanking actually is; it's tanking stuff while not being the main tank, which is a far cry from DPSing because you don't need to tank anything atm).

The "real" argument is that PLD should get their tank stance at 30 before WARs get their tank stance at 30. The issue with this is that WARs get Defiance at 30 because every other job skill they get is contingent upon it. The devs likely intended for tanks to get their tank stances later than 30, but the design of WAR precludes that so they get to break the rules.

My guess as to why the devs provide SwO at 30 and ShO at 40 is that they expect that, if PLDs got Shield Oath right away, when they got SwO, they would never use it. Either that or they recognized that you're not liable to use or even acknowledge your damage stance on a tank job if you get your tank stance first. By giving you 10 levels where your only stance is SwO, you're basically forced to use it and at least see a bit of its functionality (which is, sadly enough, largely hidden because it only buffs your auto-attacks and doesn't actually increase those so much as add an extra hit to each of them).

No matter what the devs intended though, I really don't see much issue in the first place. There isn't a pressing need from an enmity standpoint to give PLDs ShO instantly because enmity problems basically vanish once you get RoH. From a survivability standpoint, it's not really problematic because PLD has a much stronger CD suite than WAR at that point which is more than enough to offset the benefits of Defiance. If anything, SwO is probably more useful to PLDs than ShO would be at 30 because it increases their damage, which speeds up kills, which gets you to level faster. ShO is there for survivability and enmity generation, neither of which should be anything approaching an issue when you're leveling.

Actually, from what i've learned and seen when i play healer or dps instead of tank is people are massively confused about how Sword Oath actually works.

First: If youre a tank please heed this information:


Tanks are tanks. They are not dps.

Sword Oath is given to paladins for only off tanking purposes. (Take note of that period.)

Warriors have an off tanking combo. When PLDs off tank they sword oath, cast stoneskin on the main tank and use the riot blade combo to restore MP. When Warriors off tank they Storms Eye and Storms Path.

All tanks roles are to hold threat and manage damage.

Warriors heal themselves.

Paladins mitigate damage.

If you are a good warrior and paladin and have strength gear sure you can push more dps than a vit pld or warrior, but you will never out dps a dps or healer unless that healer or dps is undergeared than you and or is just terrible.

For example:

This paladin in Brayflox Lonstop hard mode decided he would use str accessories and put on less parry focused gear for skillspeed/determination/crithit so he could 'push more dps' in sword oath against bosses.

When i heal Bfls HM boss fights i normally (with a good tank who is actually tanking and not trying to 'dps') use divine seal>regen>medica II then go clerics stance and dps the boss.

If the tank is actually tanking and not trying to "dps" while holding threat as a healer i push way more dps than a "str acc." "Tank" ever can. (gear balanced speaking.)

So when this tank decided to "dps" instead of "tank" i was rendered unable to deal basically any dps except pop an aero here and there on the boss while not in cleric cause i had to baby this "dps'ing paladin, thus causing the fight to last longer than normal.

So please dont try to tank and 'dps' at the same time. Its a joke, and you are only making the healers job needlessly harder.


That is an example of how some people think sword oath works in relation to shield oath. I have even had someone tell me that sword oath generated more threat than shield oath. Many Paladins who are even clearning turn 5 pre 2.2 believe sword oath is a skill you can use while tanking.

When i say off tanking i mean: Turn 5 during conflags, the warrior is tanking the paladin is in sword oath attacking the conflags and placing the Rage of Halone debuff on twintania, or other such styles of fighting. Turn 2: off tanking is when the other tank has pulled a node off you because you have stacks and its time to swap, so you use stoneskin on the current "main tank" and use riot blade to replenish MP.

If youre tanking something you really should be in shield oath not sword oath as shield oath is a tanking mechanic (it adds threat and adds a 20% damage reduction, this is what tanks do, hold threat and manage damage.)




(Let me go even further into why there is a tank shortage and why these skills are given backwards.)

In 1.0 Warriors could heal themselves really well and Paladins damage mitigation skills werent as effective. Thus more people played Warrior (including myself) in 1.0 in relation to Paladin.

Once 2.0 came along they nerfed warriors healing, and buffed paladins damage mitigation, and what do we see? more Paladins and less warriors. They had to patch warriors because they saw this trend, and for some reason instead of restoring their healing abilities similar to 1.0 again, they weirdly added damage mitigation abilities.

So, in closing, Tanks, when confused by backwards skill acquisition, think Sword Oath is a main tanking mechanic, and allows you to "push dps" causing healers to become frustrated, tanks to be confused, people not enjoying tanking, thus resulting in a lower interest in tanks.

When warrior was buffed people jumped to that class and i see many warriors now. So quickly are people jumping to play warrior in Leviathan extreme because its a fun job.

I am not certain when the "enmity" buff was added, but it was not needed. Players just need to understand tanking and the order at which you obtain skills should not be confusing. So again, simply give Paladins Shield Oath at level 30. They are tank and that is a tanking ability. Thank you.