SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

[Madoka]

Again, a real pet class would not work in this game.
You physically cannot control two avatars at once in any capacity to do end game content. And a "real summoner" would not work either as you'd just be casting one long thing to make a summon show up and nuke an area. That's not fucking fun for an MMO. You'd be a blm with ifrit popping up to shit out the fire 3. XIV's summoner is actually the first time where they tried something besides "X + bahamut access" in any FF title
An SMNs working the way they used do only works with the ATB system anyway, look at bravely default. Summoner is probably the worst class in the game despite being the strongest a summoner has ever been.


Logical points of unique class LBs, or discussing what future pet roles will be is fine. Complaining about SMN and asking for a complete class revamp from the ground up is retarded and would piss off far more players than you realize AND would serve no goddamn purpose. Who gives a shit if we're a WoW warlock with a green turret, we're still a more fun class than nearly every other dps in the game and strong as hell to boot.

[Crevox]

Again, a real pet class would not work in this game.

How not? You're saying it's impossible for an MMORPG to properly design a pet class? There's literally an infinity amount of ideas that can be done. They chose to make "Summoner" a class about diseasing enemies and making their lungs fail on them (according to the debuff descriptions) instead of a class that focuses on summoning powerful entities to fight for them. When I'm out soloing mobs for these random story quests, I forget to summon my pet because it doesn't even really help me. This is a freaking Summoner, a pet class, and the pet is non-essential/non important; it's basically just another DoT. It's utterly disappointing that it is "forgettable" and almost useless. It plays a minimal role into your rotation and basically just functions as a free DPS increase.

The game already has a class that heavily relies on their pet to function properly - Scholar. The same exact thing could be done for Summoner, but in a damage role and a bit more fleshed out. The pet control mechanics are already there; AoE damage reduction, manual micromanagement of the pet location, etc. It's all functional. To say the class "would not work" makes absolutely no sense.

There was no need for them to make Summoner a DoT class where the majority of the damage comes from the caster. My summon is weak, it's "a green turret" as you put it. I don't feel like a Summoner at all, and in a Final Fantasy MMORPG, the game should at least be able to get the job concepts/gameplay styles right. A lot of people play a Final Fantasy MMORPG to play as a specific class in a party scenario with their friends; and honestly, all of them are mostly done very well, but Summoner is just way off base. Again, the only reason it exists this way is because:

-They needed another casting class (there was only 2)
-They wanted Thaumaturge to be a nuker, and Conjurer to be a healer
-They wanted a DoT caster DPS
-Everyone wanted Summoner really badly, thus mush the two concepts together

They really didn't have to try very hard to make the Summoner concept work in this game: make a class that focuses on summoning pets, and the pets are where their power lies. The pets are what do the damage/utility/whatever, while the Summoner supports the pet (AS A SUMMONER). There are many different game concepts you can work with then to fit this into an MMORPG setting: Aion Spiritmaster works fine with the caster casting "Command" spells that tell the pet to do various different abilities based on which pet is out (and different pets do everything things). DAoC Necromancer works fine too, with the master acting as a support for the pet (and the pet is the primary source of damage). Heck, yes, even XI summoner could work just fine with many tweaks (MP bar doesn't drain, use current pet bar system, etc). Then the summoner can just DPS THROUGH commanding and managing their pet. Those are just a few ideas - like I said, there are MANY MANY things they COULD have done (or heaven forbid they come up with a new idea) that would have fit much better with the Summoner theme, but instead we got pigeonholed into DoTs.

It's not my job or yours to come up with the design for the class, it's on them to make the class match the theme pre-established through all the FINAL FANTASY games. People WANTED Summoner because they wanted the style: a class that commands a powerful summon, or one that matches things done in previous FINAL FANTASY titles. That's pretty much how every other job was designed, with Dragoons jumping/Monks comboing/Paladins shielding/whatever. Summoner got voted top in the polls because they wanted the FINAL FANTASY Summoner in the game. What we got does not fit at all, and I know myself (alongside many, many others) are disappointed by that. If they didn't intend on making Summoner like a Summoner should be, they should've just left it as Arcanist. Arcanist is fine, it is what it is, but when you transition to Summoner nothing changes but your pet model and you get a new Arcanist nuke. If they wanted to use the DoT gameplay style and give Arcanist a job, they should've just called it something else. There was NO reason to slap Garuda/Ifrit/Titan models on the pets and go "hur hur hur now you have Summoner in the game happy now?" And yes, it really does seems like they designed this entire/class job ahead of time and then they were like "oh they want summoner? we should make it summoner" and just changed the pet models (carbuncle, garuda, ifrit, titan, ooh such a summoner now). It's also absolutely disappointing that I can even consider that to be the case, but that's how far offshoot this thing is compared to what it should be.

Complaining about SMN and asking for a complete class revamp from the ground up is retarded and would piss off far more players than you realize AND would serve no goddamn purpose.

Arcanist is fine. Leave the DoT gameplay style, there's nothing wrong with it. Summoner on the other hand should not be glued to this thing called "Arcanist" when it has nothing to do with DoTs. Arcanist should get a new job to fulfill the upgrade of DoT gameplay style, and Summoner should either root from a new class or change the gameplay style/rotation more drastically than it currently does (currently: not at all). I can tell you that "more people than you realize" are disappointed with how Summoner turned out in this game. It's already one of the least played classes; that alone is encouragement for them to go forward with a revamp. And yes, it would serve a purpose, because it would make fans happy that they actually decided to fix the Summoner class to actually be a Summoner instead of a warlock. If you want to talk about potential gains, that would cause people to re-sub or continue to sub because they can play the class they want. I can tell you that a LOT more people would be playing Summoner if they actually decided to make it a pet class (I can't even call this thing a pet class since the pet almost doesn't exist). With this current class/abomination being called "Summoner", it ruins any hope of a proper pet class being implemented in the game, and ruins any chance of them actually implementing the FINAL FANTASY Summoner everyone wanted.

[Kirinichibon]

Summoner is so well balanced and fun right now. Of all classes in this game, nothing scales more with player skill and team skill than SMN. And for those complaining that it's not enough of a pet class, my targeting and rotations revolve around rouse/spur/enk and targeting my pet. When I need to deal damage fast on a new target, the best thing I can do target-Obey and Rouse. All of the job skills are simple and only add a bit to the classes. I don't understand what people are constantly complaining about.

[Crevox]

Summoner is so well balanced and fun right now. Of all classes in this game, nothing scales more with player skill and team skill than SMN. And for those complaining that it's not enough of a pet class, my targeting and rotations revolve around rouse/spur/enk and targeting my pet. When I need to deal damage fast on a new target, the best thing I can do target-Obey and Rouse. All of the job skills are simple and only add a bit to the classes. I don't understand what people are constantly complaining about.

The gameplay style of this "thing", Arcanist, is perfectly fine. It's skillful and balanced. However, it is not the Summoner we all wanted. There's nothing wrong with keeping this current thing in the game, but they should implement an actual Summoner instead of slapping the Summoner title on this thing and hoping the fans are okay with it.

And.. I don't know why you would ever target your pet. Spur/Rouse/Enk constitute less than a global cooldown in time once every long while. The gameplay barely revolves around the pet at all; you just use the cooldowns at the right time and that's all there is to it. It is a "tool", a mere DPS increase and DoT that you can move between targets at will. It could not be a pet and it wouldn't make any difference. Enk could just be a nuke you cast instead, and Spur and Rouse are literally just "you do more damage." Woopie. The pet is only useful and used because it's free DPS and knows Contagion.

[Kirinichibon]

I don't target my pet as in select it, I target my pet as in aim it...welcome to english. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/target

See, this is the logical fallacy that comes with pet classes. On one hand, you want to use the pet more or do more things with the pets. On the other hand, you consider pet damage as free or just a boost. What the pet does, you are 100% responsible for it. You are as much playing the pet as you are the summoner. The pet is your auto attack, basically. Melee DPS try to boost their auto attack and have to work at staying in range and facing their targets. Summoners do this with their pets instead.

I wish scrolling text could be updated to highlight pet damage to appear like the character's damage. I think folks would pay more attention to what the pet is actually doing then, and those who don't feel like it's enough of a pet class would shut up a little.

[Crevox]

See, this is the logical fallacy that comes with pet classes. On one hand, you want to use the pet more or do more things with the pets. On the other hand, you consider pet damage as free or just a boost. What the pet does, you are 100% responsible for it. You are as much playing the pet as you are the summoner. The pet is your auto attack, basically. Melee DPS try to boost their auto attack and have to work at staying in range and facing their targets. Summoners do this with their pets instead.

I consider the pet damage a "boost" or "free" because it's so small in comparison to the main source (the player), when it shouldn't even be that way. Of course we manage the pet and it's position, it's a part of our DPS; but it's little more a part of our DPS than Bio II or Fester is because of how little it contributes.

Also, the whole auto attack comparison is fail, because we Summoners also have our own auto attack we use if you're actually serious about doing DPS. Melee auto attack is exactly that - auto. They don't have to worry about doing it because it happens automatically while they do their rotation. Garuda is a spell in itself and more effort is required to manage it, but again, it's nothing more than a DoT with a life meter. The reason why she's not valued more is because she only has 2 buttons (1 you press if aoe, the other you press on cooldown with timing on dots) and contributes such a small fraction compared to your damage output, despite being you being a Summoner.

Like I said, when I'm out soloing, sometimes I just don't bother to summon her because there's just no need. A pet class should RELY on the pet for doing their damage; it should be their key component of damage output and their "rotation." This is especially true for Summoners, as it has been that way in just about every FINAL FANTASY to date, and it's what a lot of people were looking forward to (not a class that spams diseases). Instead, she's nothing more than a turret you have to move around, otherwise she dies and you lose a bit of DPS (and mana).

[Kirinichibon]

I do relyon my pet for damage. When I can't bane/fester something in a pinch, obey <t> is the quickest way to get some damage on a target. If you don't value your pet as a smn or your auto attack damage as a melee class, you should consider a new role.

Do you want a class that is 100% pet? This is not summoner. Not in this game. Please stop asking for this outside of the suggestion forum.

[Crevox]

I do relyon my pet for damage. When I can't bane/fester something in a pinch, obey <t> is the quickest way to get some damage on a target. If you don't value your pet as a smn or your auto attack damage as a melee class, you should consider a new role.

No one ever said I don't "value my pet" or "auto attack damage." The pet is a tool, a DPS tool. I make use of it as needed, but it is simply that, a tool, and nothing more; no more a tool than any other skill. Yes, you're not a special little snowflake for knowing how to make your pet target different things, as much as you'd like to believe.

If you don't agree with the topic and the issues within, fine - don't post. Leave. You clearly won't be convinced, and you just want to keep trying to boast about how smart of a Summoner you are for knowing how to use your pet (and apparently, how good at English you are for using a different intepretation of the word "target"). Stating your opinion over and over again against everyone else's won't change things. You're ignoring a wealth of issues that the Summoner job has and arguing one thing you disagree with on. If you don't agree, that's fine, understood - but there's no need to continue trolling the topic.

[Jediman]

It all boils down to summoner wanting the egi to DPS not the other way round it just don't justify why a class that has an upgrade to ACN >> SMN has to be a DoT class.

I said this before I say it again here:

Lets say SE is planing to keep the class on DoT base damage.
Will SE allow us summoner to hard core DoT or allow the Egi to do more damage then the SMN or are they keeping it balance.

IF they are keeping it balance DoT + Egi damage.
My question is what's the point on having the Egi in the 1st place if they are planing to balance it.

This is why I ask they should remap the class again because it don't feel like a summoner class. Or if your a fan or WoW you could play as warlock thats what they done here.

Quote Originally Posted by Hvinire
We discussed your feedback about the design of the egi with the development team. As was mentioned previously during the Beta test, the design planner reiterated that egi were designed to be a manifestation of a percentage of power taken from the primals and are intentionally designed to appear differently from the primal. As such, we aren't planning on changing the look of egi at higher levels.

We will however continue to take in your feedback when creating new egi that will be added in the future.

Sometime I think they gave us smn small portion of the power so little damage lol why even make egi... i think its 10/100% about 10% of the power we were given and the rest 90% was given to the rest of the class's lol
Because of this statement they nefed the smn class while other class's are close to what they do in the final fantasy series.

Final Fantasy 11 Female Mithra gyrating all over the screen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVP_7QGeaw8

FFXIV Miquote /pose animation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YYHRLnvEA4

don't get me wrong i like cats lol ^v^
But people are failing to understand most developers from final fantasy XI have moved to final fantasy XIV.

[Kirinichibon]

You're ignoring a wealth of issues that the Summoner job has and arguing one thing you disagree with on. If you don't agree, that's fine, understood - but there's no need to continue trolling the topic.

Ok, let's talk about issues that summoner has:
- garuda is the only viable pet...addressed in 2.3-ish
- tri-disaster is horrible. It is. Not worth anything (in PVE at least?).
- Titan lacks a snap-agro ability to be useful as a oh-crap tank in groups.
- Cantagion is too necessary and maybe should be a job skill.
- Some of garuda's casts get delayed from distance or just don't fire.
- all our cross-class skills, besides two, are useless. (common with many jobs)

These are things in the game that exists today that need to be or are being addressed. Continually proposing complete class overhauls for aesthetic or personal reasons (there are three topics on every page in the dps forums and some in the general forums) is tiring.