Yoshi-P: Atma drop % = "it's just luck"

[Jerichai]

Snip

While I tend to think a system that let's some people complete it well under the average acquisition time based solely on luck is bad...my argument has only been focused on those that are on the opposite side of the bell curve. Those that have been grinding for days (in played time) and still don't have the item. What I and others have suggested is a cutoff...not a hard requirement. More of a 'if you don't get the item in X attempts, you get the item'. Based on where X is set, there would still be plenty of room for RNG effects...allowing plenty to finish before X, but it would create a cutoff for the max anyone would have to work on a single Atma. This has 2 beneficial effects:

1. You eliminate the extreme cases of the most unfortunate. Ultimately, everyone would be done at or within a set amount of dedicated time, even if there was still a large spread in that time.

2. This system would be more casual friendly. When you've got very restricted play time, spending any of that on a task that could yield now progress towards a goal makes that task feel less worth it. With a cutoff, people can work towards the Atma with the knowledge that even if RNG doesn't favor them, they're still making progress towards an Atma, because every fate complete is one more towards the cutoff. With a pure RNG system, there is now sense of progress until success if obtained, because drop rate doesn't change with attempts.

[RyuDragnier]

15-20 seems heinously simple... practically a hand-out.

The Zenith currently feels like one to me. Besides, it still wouldn't stop the huge grind to get it to animus status. It's been 24 days and I just finished book 7. And I'm taking it semi-casually to get the books (daily duty roulettes for myths), hardcore to finish them (I finish them the day I get them). If you had casual on both, it'd take them around 2 months. And considering it takes around 2-3 months for a content patch to come, and that they'd probably do this when the Novus comes out, it won't cause as much problems as you think.

[Jerichai]

Seeing that zenith players can easily (by design) clear t7, "screwed over" is a gross overstatement, but I digress.

While you're right...the issue usually arises with the community itself. I haven't played an MMO in the last decade where I haven't seen a growing portion of the community start to require an unnecessarily high level of gearing relative to the content the majority are working on.

Given that the relic weapon is going to continue to grow relative to the available content (some even saying ilvl 115), I won't be surprised when a growing number of groups start having a Novus relic requirement for turns 6 and 7...but I digress

[Duuude007]

While you're right...the issue usually arises with the community itself. I haven't played an MMO in the last decade where I haven't seen a growing portion of the community start to require an unnecessarily high level of gearing relative to the content the majority are working on.

Given that the relic weapon is going to continue to grow relative to the available content (some even saying ilvl 115), I won't be surprised when a growing number of groups start having a Novus relic requirement for turns 6 and 7...but I digress

All evidence points toward future top tier weapons being tied in first. End raid and end relic.

Difficulty to earn must remain proportionally the same, one for skill, one for time.

So far, I feel they are working toward that goal quite well. Even if small tweaks may be needed, a full redesign seems totally unreasonable.

[skaterger]

snip

The reason why people who like rng find the idea of any goal oriented grind or a failsafe so abhorrent is simple. Knowing the outcome and how long it takes to get there is mind numbingly boring. The heart will not race, the ears will not perk up of the Atma ding after every fate. It's just 1 down, 99 more to go.

But the bigger question is why must there be a failsafe? What's wrong with failing? Are gamers so spoilt nowadays that they must get everything in a relatively short span of time? Now before you run off calling me am elitist, ask yourself this. Is is a failure of the players or the failure of the system? Coming from the same server ooshima I can vouch for everything he said. In addition in my fc, those that have persevered in farming Atma have all got theirs a long ago while those that have not spend more time complaining than farming and those are just a few.

If anything the cutoff system is a lazy system that is worse than either pure rng or pure X number of fates. It seems like you want to hope to get lucky while not being susceptible to bad luck. Each system has its flaws and strength and it seems you want to have the cake and eat it at the same time.

[RyuDragnier]

All evidence points toward future top tier weapons being tied in first. End raid and end relic.

Difficulty to earn must remain proportionally the same, one for skill, one for time.

So far, I feel they are working toward that goal quite well. Even if small tweaks may be needed, a full redesign seems totally unreasonable.

I'm not so sure the top end weapons will be the same in strength, and I'm using the next upgrade of the Relic, the Novus, as the example. If enough people get the Atma/Animus before 2.28, they'll add Novus there, before a new Coil is added, making it surpass the T9 weapons. Plus I've heard whispers that the Novus may give 5 stats instead of just 4, which would make it far more useful up until probably the 3rd Coil's end.

[Duuude007]

I'm not so sure the top end weapons will be the same in strength, and I'm using the next upgrade of the Relic, the Novus, as the example. If enough people get the Atma/Animus before 2.8, they'll add Novus there, before a new Coil is added, making it surpass the T9 weapons. Plus I've heard whispers that the Novus may give 5 stats instead of just 4, which would make it far more useful up until probably the 3rd Coil's end.

theres magazine posts in jp showing progression of relics from i100 animus to i115... novus. and it wasnt 2.8, it was 2.28, mid may.

[RyuDragnier]

theres magazine posts in jp showing progression of relics from i100 animus to i115... novus. and it wasnt 2.8, it was 2.28, mid may.

Sorry, I typo'd hard there.

[Jerichai]

Snip

Your argument is having an RNG system with an extreme case failsafe completely eliminates RNG....ummm...okay. If the failsafe was set to 100, as an example, that's still 99 attempts for 'thrill of RNG'...per ATMA. That's still pretty RNG friendly if you ask me.

And I've never argued failure is bad. For instance, failure to complete a raid boss isn't bad. Failing a fight is an indication that your raid team needs to be stronger...a challenge to improve mechanics and group coordination. That is a good kind of failure in video games, because it forces the player to get better to achieve success. Failing the Atma grind doesn't do that. When you fail to get an Atma, you just go to the next fate and hope RNG favors you there.

And yes, failing this can have negative impacts on the players. Some people like working on long term quests like the relic. Others like the lore aspect, such as the small lore tidbits Gerolt gave players about their jobs in the first part of the relic quest. Others may be having equally bad luck with the other weapon drops and are starting to fall behind on the content their gear realistically allows them to do. When a system stops people from participating in the content they enjoy...solely based on an arbitrary decider like being unlucky with RNG...yes that is a failing of a system.

And I still don't think putting in a failsafe to limit the pain for the worse off outliers would have zero impact on your enjoyment.

[Duuude007]

Your argument is having an RNG system with an extreme case failsafe completely eliminates RNG....ummm...okay. If the failsafe was set to 100, as an example, that's still 99 attempts for 'thrill of RNG'...per ATMA. That's still pretty RNG friendly if you ask me.

How about a compromise. 300 fates, with a current 'chance' each attempt.

That seems more fair than merely 100. Even if it is on a silver platter at 300, at least it was reasonable level of effort.