A way to keep both casual and hardcore players happy

[Shirai]

The more you post, the more contradicting you get.

[Aura_Shurifon]

The more I read this thread, the more I'm laughing on the number of person that can't read/understand...
I'll talk objectively because i don't care if OP is right or wrong.

The subject is NOT about difficulty, it's about GRIND like doing the same thing over and over in order to be able to take the next step. And he said that again without people understanding and them repeating the same argument (which are right, but out of subject)...


If we compare to standard RPG, OP want a progress so that you can advance smoothly through the story (content) without the need to stop before one boss because it will smash you unless you GRIND 10+ hours doing the same previous content (one you have already done) in order to be able to have a chance to win.

If we look at what we have right now, you can go up to praetorium and see the "ending" of the main story without the need to GRIND. But then, you start to grind for philo/myth/soldiery, seals, gils, atma, in order to progress. You need to grind 50 brayflox HM, Halatali HM, Amdapor City (thx stupid RNG for drop) just to have i70 equipement before you can do primal HM and Coil 1 etc...
THAT IS what OP doesn't want. He talk about the point where you have to repeat the same thing in order to advance, where those things could be faster with the SAME difficulty we have right now.

I laugh too because it's exactly what people were angry about ATMA when other counter with "you just want it to be handed" when in fact players wanted boss fight (like hard one) or anything else than GRINDING hour of EASY (and stupid) FATE for the same result (without visibility on progress).

What he propose is to add grind after that, Grind that would serve for time attack (good idea) Higher difficulty dunjon/primal (same mecanics, but higher damage output/defense etc...)

Thx for reading...

[ShinigamiB06]

snip

Oh my god. I sincerely take my hat off to you and thank you. Not because you agree or disagree but because you have grasped in its entirety the point I was trying to make, and understood the suggestion I made. So many posts in this thread really have NOTHING to do with my OP. But now that I know at least one person understood the idea, regardless of whether you approve or not, I feel better

thank you!

[Asiaine]

How to make Casual and Hardcore players happy (depends on the definition of casual/hardcore but here goes):

Complex and challenging battle mechanics and equipment customization. Where understanding only 20% of your abilities is needed to finish main scenarios/storyline, understanding 50% is needed to for finishing most end game content, and understanding 80% is needed for the extreme end game content.

Completion of end game content does not depend on repetition or RNG, but on being able to master your skill and using the right equipment.
Completion of non-end-game contents only requires you to have a basic grasp of your skills.

[XNihili]

If we change the point of view, then everything after the main story is your "after".
You've already completed all the Casual content. Happy you.

[SpookyGhost]

On the subject of grinding, then ~ I think, at least at some level, MMORPGs need a grind. It's more a question of just how much of a grind, and how you go about doing it. As an example of how it doesn't really work well in XIV, look at Myth/Soldiery farming. All you can do is Brayflox because it's the quickest, most efficient way, and there's not enough incentive to do any other dungeons. There isn't even incentive to do Expert Roulette, which would at least allow people some variety. But no, it's Brayflox for an hour or two, then for however long you want to spend trying to get Animus books. That's not the good grind, that's the tedious monotonous grind, and I agree that they should definitely move away from that. Unfortunately... it doesn't seem like they will as the Atma quest itself is "do the same thing enough times = get reward". Hopefully, instead, they stick to the Animus book design where you do multiple things of huge variety to get a reward.

Without needing to grind things out on lower tier 50 dungeons, you'd end up with extremely long queue times for new players which SE obviously wouldn't want. So as a way to alleviate that and also reward players for doing so, you're given tomestones to exchange for gear to participate in end game content. If you just don't like the RNG of dungeon drops, the tomestone is specifically in place for you. You fill the pieces you don't get with i90 from Myth and i100 from Soldiery, which boost up your main stats/Defenses/accuracy to allow you to beat the progression content.

I get that people want to be done with content, I'd be cool with not having to do Brayflox again, but without it the community would stagnate and there'd be a lot more upset people than happy people. What I think we need, more than anything, isn't less of a grind but just MORE true end game content (like Coil2). If there was more raiding content to participate in, or just more difficult/challenging content, people wouldn't be so upset at having to run low tier 50 dungeons for Myth/Soldiery.

Basically, the tomestone system is to solve the dungeon RNG problem. If you don't like dungeon RNG, tomestone system was put in specifically for you. Getting more gear is essentially like leveling up, as an example you can't go fight Brock with a lvl 1 Squirtle - you need to grind out those levels, then go fight Brock and Bubble his Onix into dust. Really wet dust.

[Shirai]

What you want, cannot be done and it has been explained to you on page 1 of this thread already!
They either have to make content so easy that everyone can roll through it while sleeping, or hand out gear on a silver platter with gold and platinum lining and a cherry on top as soon as they hit level 50.

There is no other way, you can't sustain an online model with an easy mode and a hard mode for everything.
Spooky above me here explains really well why.

[Nakiamiie]

The way I see it, SE is making grind for the latest content and lessening that grind for casuals as new stuff comes out.

Of course, there is still grind involved for casual, but it is more acceptable (even though grind itself isn't fun in my opinion).

[Asiaine]

It seems, as was the case in 1.0, that 'Grinding' is the solution here to keep the most active (hard-core) players occupied until new content comes out. I do not think it is the best way.

[Lafiele]

Literally, not once, did I use the word skill in my post or anything like it. Nor did I say casuals are bad/new/noob. You completely misunderstood my suggestion all for the sake of insulting me and saying that I am bad at this game. But it's all good if that's what tickles your pickle.

I never asked for content to be made less difficult. In your words, you said that i90 is enough to clear t9. What I was actually suggesting was that if i90 is enough to clear everything up to t9, then make it less of a grind to achieve i90 so casuals can grind less to experience more content. The game literally has minimum ilvl requirements to beat content regardless of players skill and this is literally true because in many places there are dps check. Again, so you don't misinterpret my post again and insult my skill level, I DO NOT WANT CONTENT DIFFICULTY TO BE REDUCED. (the caps are not me screaming, just me hoping it will help you read better)

I figured you would answer something along the line of this so I will break it down for you.

I have put a lot of thought into what it would take to keep both types of players in an MMO happy. Giving serious consideration to what it is both types of players want, I have come up with an idea I feel is a solid one.

Here is the deal:
Casuals want to be able to experience the full game without having to spend too much time on things like grind.
Hardcores, want things like grind because they extend the amount of time they can spend on the game while feeling progression.

At first glance, both types of players want complete opposite things so it's impossible to keep both happy. But thats not necessarily true. Here is my suggestion:

Make grinding content happen AFTER all playable content.

Let me explain. As the game is designed right now, things like extreme primals and coil are very challenging, while also having relatively high ilvl requirements. That means that you have to do some grinding in order to upgrade your gear to so much as attempt them.

Firstly, there is really extremely limited grind to get to i90 at the moment. You can get pieces through myths (through a variety of methods, normal 4 man dungeons, extreme primals, ct etc etc), i80 gear with CT and more i90 gear through echoed t1-5. Something that is already implemented to assist with casual players. To put it simply, aside from HANDING it to you from an NPC which sells i90 pieces for free, I can't see how much more accessible i90 gear is for new players right now.

This is what pushes casuals away. Casuals don't want to have to grind for amazing gear in order to experience the primals and/or coil. Therefor, I suggest that the gear be acquired faster and easier for all players so casuals can be happy and experience all the content without having to spend too much time.

Okay, right here is key, I have just explained why i90 isn't hard to get and is hardly considered a grind but your major point is saying player needs HIGH ilvl gear to complete all content which is completely not true. This is why I said, it is not the gear that limits players from experiencing all content but their skill. They're not really having trouble grinding for gear but they are grinding for "skill". This is why I brought up bad/new/noob players. You didn't say it directly but your heavy emphasis on gear is completely wrong. Gear is important but it only gets you so far. Even at i110, you won't be surviving a titan tumultx4 if you don't move out of it.

Hardcores, as I said, want extended playability. Which is why I suggest that the game implement much much more content like the relic atma/animus quest. *BUT* i suggest that this extensive quest can not even be started until you have beaten all primals and coil turns. This way, casuals are happy because they experienced all the content, and hardcores are happy because they still have plenty to aim for even after clearing everything.

Now, I understand that some will criticize this idea because they would be aiming for the best gear,but they have already beaten all the content. I can't speak for hardcore players, but I don't think this would matter to them. Again, I *think* that for them it's more about having goals than it is about facing primals or turns with the best gear. To further reinforce this theory, hardcores are always rushing to beat content so you just know for a fact that they aren't doing it with the best gear. And to expand even more on that, coil is the hardest content and it drops the best gear. And hardcores don't seem to mind that they obtained the best gear but they don't really have anything to "use" it against.

And lastly, IF hardcores wanted to use the gear they obtained post playable content and through grind, I suggest the devs implement time trials for primals and coil. Casuals generally don't care much for things like time trials. They just want to beat the content. But this would be amazing for the hardcores because there will always be a record to beat. Even tanks and healers would enjoy the added challenge of timed trials as they would be forced to contribute to DPS in order for best results.

Hope you all like and support my suggestion

The main fault here is you're trying to separate the hardcore population but in fact hardcore people are just people who spend more time playing the game. If you spend more time playing a game then of course in theory, if your skill is assumed to be the same as a casual player, you would clear content faster than casual. You are never going to find the perfect balance for hardcore and casuals. There will always be people who finish content before others and run out of things to do and there will always be people who find anything more than being handed to you a grind.

The best resolve is what SE has done right now, which is make content and gear required accessible by everyone at "relative" ease but not so easy that you're just watching a youtube walkthrough. Current content has been shown to be doable at i90 ish and there are as mentioned before, a variety of ways to obtain gear up to i90 and even if you don't want to do coil but want i90+ gear you can farm for soldiery tomes. On average, it takes about 1 week maybe 2 of effort to gear i90. If you think that is a grind, then you may want to reconsider playing an mmo since 2 weeks to get gear to clear all content in this game is pretty fast IMO. The grind for i100+ gear does exist and that exist for the hardcore players who want BiS and all sorts. But for clearing content, anything around mid 90s is doable. So a couple of weeks of soldiery and maybe a lucky piece or two from the first two turns of the second coil and you're pretty much set for t9 if your party is capable enough.


SO this is why I am telling you, it is not gear that is causing a problem for casuals but people labelling themselves as casuals and saying it's the gear that is not letting them do content but in reality, it's their skill. The only way to solve that is by lowering the difficulty which SE will do once a new content patch is release. But until then, if you're not a very good player, you either have to work to improve your skill or wait for the echo buff)

Lastly, I'm not trying to insult you but I just want you to understand, it's already extremely easy to obtain the ilvl gear required to clear all content and if you're wearing i90+ and still not able to complete extreme and coil content, then wearing i110 won't help you that much either. Instead of asking SE for change, you should maybe reflect on your in game strategies with your party etc.

If you don't agree with me then can I ask, what ilvl is your top class right now and what ilvl gear do you wish SE to make more accessible so you or casuals can clear end game content.

Oh just to finish, skill in game is really your speed and ability to learn and memorize a fight. IT has nothing to do with "good at thinking on the go which some players claim they are" (generalized quote from players I've met). Yes thinking on the go is good for times when something unexpected happens e.g t5 someone gets hit by dive bomb and the blm uses his mana wall (I think it's mana wall?) to protect him from a potential next one etc. Or maybe an OT who reacts quickly when the MT dies and saves a wipe. These play only a small role in the bigger scheme of things. Ultimately it is memorizing the pattern and executing your core discussed strategy that gets you through content in any game. e.g. knowing when do dodge that boss move, where to move when boss hits this phase etc etc. It's all about understanding the pattern.