Parry...

[Casper]

Snip

A large quantity of testing had been done very early into the game (see this). It showed conclusively that we had a formula of 10% parry rate flat + 1% per additional 13 parry rate above base value. I have tested myself that this formula is still valid now that we have access to much higher gear, with more stats into them, etc.

At this point this formula has been showed to work on all kind of level, all kind of gear, on all kind of monsters. There are still people to show up and say "but my healers can't tell the difference LOL". If there is any kind of soft cap, we have either not reached it yet, or just recently (which would be hard to prove until we have more gear). At this point, anyway, it is fucking CERTAIN that going zero to 250 additional parry is going to make your parry rate jump from 10% to almost 30%. Despite this, you have people still arguing that det would provide more benefits. At this point, this is a lost cause.

[SwordCoheir]

A large quantity of testing had been done very early into the game (see this).

Yes using P1-3 Beta data is definitely a reliable source...

I can already throw some of this data in the trash because I went over the value of Block Strength and STR's effect on Block Mitigation just a few weeks ago.

Here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...85#post1998985

and Here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...58#post2000858

And yes while I am aware the discussion is about parry, if that data has altered so much in your notes it shouldn't be used as a definitive point of reference.

[ZDamned]

(And I'm not trying to pick on you - honestly I'm not! - but 1 is a soft cap, not 3. A soft cap is where a stat suddenly drops in value, but not to zero. 3 is a hard cap, where the stat literally doesn't do anything for you after a certain point. Diminishing returns are when a stat slowly and steadily loses value as it increases. REGARDLESS OF TERMINOLOGY, those are great questions and I hope to learn the answers too.)

No worries! I was under the impression that a Hard cap is the highest attainable from available gear, and a Soft Cap is the highest usable amount of a stat. I always thought Diminishing Returns were in a different category, but a lead in to what I had understood was the Soft Cap. So, thanks for correcting me!

Here is the thing: yesterday, i92 gear oriented parry, on T7, i was doing 125 to 130 in shield oath on the boss. Doing your best to not forget any SW/CoS when in dps gear, then slacking in tank gear is going to skew your results. If anything, the numbers you provided just proved that you should most definitely go in full parry because the dps you will gain by going with no parry and det and crit instead is going to be negligible (6 to 7% more likely, a bit more if you go with str accessories). Those numbers are on par with what you said and what i said, i.e foregoing all parry is going to make your dps in T7 go from 125 to 136.

Ok, Looks like there needs to be a consistent standard set on how much damage you can deal with, and without Determination/Crit, because that number you pulled makes no sense to me, unless your parser works differently than mine does.
If we ignore secondary stats all together:
I was using a Wave Buckler to maximize Shield Swipes. 3xSS are greater potency than 1 RoH combo, so I only use RoH when it's about to fall off, or when SB has connected, otherwise SS is higher priority.
Your lodestone shows you using the Noct Hoplon, If you were using that shield, you should generate way less opportunities to use Shield Swipe.
So that alone should give me a huge potency edge by the 3 minute mark in how much damage was dealt. (Unless you got super lucky, and blocked the same number of times as I did with a Buckler)
Which is the next question I want to ask you. How much total damage did you deal in that fight? I'll get my number and post it soon. (I'm at work now)
Also, did you Main Tank, or Off Tank? and Did you clear the boss?
On a Training Dummy, I get a clear 30~ DPS boost in my DPS gear over my Parry gear, and that is without Blocks adding more potency, so my in combat DPS is higher while standing still on a boss like T7.
So your stated number ALSO bothers me because I have more strength than your lodestone profile(If that is the gear you were in) by at least 10 points.
Your DPS number is either flat out wrong, or your parser is badly configured. Because stats can't enable you do pull those numbers.

[Casper]

No worries! I was under the impression that a Hard cap is the highest attainable from available gear, and a Soft Cap is the highest usable amount of a stat. I always thought Diminishing Returns were in a different category, but a lead in to what I had understood was the Soft Cap. So, thanks for correcting me!



Ok, Looks like there needs to be a consistent standard set on how much damage you can deal with, and without Determination/Crit, because that number you pulled makes no sense to me, unless your parser works differently than mine does.
If we ignore secondary stats all together:
I was using a Wave Buckler to maximize Shield Swipes. 3xSS are greater potency than 1 RoH combo, so I only use RoH when it's about to fall off, or when SB has connected, otherwise SS is higher priority.
Your lodestone shows you using the Noct Hoplon, If you were using that shield, you should generate way less opportunities to use Shield Swipe.
So that alone should give me a huge potency edge by the 3 minute mark in how much damage was dealt. (Unless you got super lucky, and blocked the same number of times as I did with a Buckler)
Which is the next question I want to ask you. How much total damage did you deal in that fight? I'll get my number and post it soon. (I'm at work now)
Also, did you Main Tank, or Off Tank? and Did you clear the boss?
On a Training Dummy, I get a clear 30~ DPS boost in my DPS gear over my Parry gear, and that is without Blocks adding more potency, so my in combat DPS is higher while standing still on a boss like T7.
So your stated number ALSO bothers me because I have more strength than your lodestone profile(If that is the gear you were in) by at least 10 points.
Your DPS number is either flat out wrong, or your parser is badly configured. Because stats can't enable you do pull those numbers.

Roh is 203.3 average potency, SS 210. Difference 3%. The truth is, this is among the standard deviation over a fight given the deviation of attacks by + to - 5% and the crit chances. Not saying you wouldn't gain a tiny bit here, but 3% difference, on 17% more attacks (due to block rate going from 21 to 38) is a 0.5% dps increase... given that you are doing around 130 dps, that's not even 1 DPS of difference. 10 str is 1.5% more damage. Total for both is about 2.5 DPS of difference.

Did you have a warrior ? Did he keep the buff to slashing on the boss ? If you go double pld, for example, that alone would be a much greater factor.

Your 30 dps boost, do you mean in dps stance ? Cause going from 100 to 130 or 170 to 200 is not the same. When you say dps gear, i assume you mean, literally, dps gear, so with str instead of vit ? Because yes, in that case, i could see a 30% damage increase. But you are not talking about sacrificing parry only here, you are sacrificing a lot of vit too to get there. 250 parry into full det and crit, plus 75 vit into str, sure, maybe we are getting closer to 25-30 dps increase, but you did not only lose almost 20% parry rate, you also lost 1k hp.

[ZDamned]

When I say DPS gear, I meant to say DPS Fending gear, and it is in Shield Oath that I gain 30 DPS going from Parry to Crit/Det. Sword Oath, I tend to hit the 185 DPS mark in the Drit/Det set.

My groups Warrior does keep Storms Eye up.

Ok everyone! Results are in! Here are my Parse logs from tonight's T7 Clear, and my first T7 Clear on Sunday.

Damage taken on Turn 7 169,119 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage taken on Turn 7 173,978 in Crit/Det Gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

Damage Dealt on Turn 7 64,879 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage Dealt on Turn 7 73,719 in Crit/Det gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

-EDIT- Fixt the Parry Numbers I mis read it initially, and had reported 479 in Crit/Det gear. SORRY! =P

I will GLADLY take 4859 damage to gain a level 1 limit break every 6 minutes.

[Casper]

When I say DPS gear, I meant to say DPS Fending gear, and it is in Shield Oath that I gain 30 DPS going from Parry to Crit/Det. Sword Oath, I tend to hit the 185 DPS mark in the Drit/Det set.

My groups Warrior does keep Storms Eye up.

Ok everyone! Results are in! Here are my Parse logs from tonight's T7 Clear, and my first T7 Clear on Sunday.

Damage taken on Turn 7 169,119 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage taken on Turn 7 173,978 in Crit/Det Gear. (479 Parry, ilvl 93)

Damage Dealt on Turn 7 64,879 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage Dealt on Turn 7 73,719 in Crit/Det gear. (479 Parry, ilvl 93)

I will GLADLY take 4859 damage to gain a level 1 limit break every 6 minutes.

Am i corrent in assuming that this is with dps fending gear too ? Which means there was also a 1k max hp difference ? Or was it just by optimizing parry or not optimizing it ?

[ZDamned]

Am i corrent in assuming that this is with dps fending gear too ? Which means there was also a 1k max hp difference ? Or was it just by optimizing parry or not optimizing it ?

This was Optimized Parry vs Optimized Crit/Determination, but all the gear is Paladin/Warrior Fending/Noct. Every piece has Vitality on it.

Both of my runs I showed data for made no sacrifices for Strength in any way. Vitality is my primary stat while raiding.

If you want a gear piece list, I will provide it later on, but the only important numbers are my Parry Rating in each set.

[MythToken]

When I say DPS gear, I meant to say DPS Fending gear, and it is in Shield Oath that I gain 30 DPS going from Parry to Crit/Det. Sword Oath, I tend to hit the 185 DPS mark in the Drit/Det set.

My groups Warrior does keep Storms Eye up.

Ok everyone! Results are in! Here are my Parse logs from tonight's T7 Clear, and my first T7 Clear on Sunday.

Damage taken on Turn 7 169,119 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage taken on Turn 7 173,978 in Crit/Det Gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

Damage Dealt on Turn 7 64,879 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage Dealt on Turn 7 73,719 in Crit/Det gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

-EDIT- Fixt the Parry Numbers I mis read it initially, and had reported 479 in Crit/Det gear. SORRY! =P

I will GLADLY take 4859 damage to gain a level 1 limit break every 6 minutes.

How long was each fight? These numbers don't mean anything without a time.

[ZDamned]

The Parry gear fight was exactly 6 minutes and 18 seconds. I'll have to re-load my logs from the Crit/Det gear fight to give you that ones exact timer.

Honestly though, the fight, no matter how long it takes, wipes you at 7 minutes. It's an enrage that hits the entire party for 25,000 damage. So Real world numbers say The boss has 532,000 HP, so that's how long the fight is. Time is irrelevant realistically. If your killing it faster, then you ARE mitigating better, and taxing your healers less.

The boss also has an innate DPS that is visible, but in the end, If the boss deals 2000 DPS for Example, and you kill it 30 seconds faster, then you just mitigated a theoretical 60,000 damage. If I recall, (Don't quote me on this, I'll get the real number soon) the T7 boss deals only 270 DPS on average. So if we kill her 30 seconds faster, that's a mitigation of 8.1K caused directly by increased damage being put out. (Strangely enough, that's almost exactly how much less I took in Parry gear.)

The reason I don't sacrifice Vitality for damage, is because that's a guaranteed safety net. My healers have reliable breathing room with each point of Vitality I gain. Sacrificing that for Strength is only useful if your healers don't need as much breathing room. So for this fight specifically, I would actually start to equip Dragoon gear as we gain in Party ilvls. Killing her faster saves us a LOT of headaches. I will be slowly swapping gear pieces in favor of Strength each week we clear it, until my healers tell me to stop. (I do EVERYTHING with their permission BTW, because I tank for my group, not for myself.)

[bokchoykn]

When I say DPS gear, I meant to say DPS Fending gear, and it is in Shield Oath that I gain 30 DPS going from Parry to Crit/Det. Sword Oath, I tend to hit the 185 DPS mark in the Drit/Det set.

My groups Warrior does keep Storms Eye up.

Ok everyone! Results are in! Here are my Parse logs from tonight's T7 Clear, and my first T7 Clear on Sunday.

Damage taken on Turn 7 169,119 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage taken on Turn 7 173,978 in Crit/Det Gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

Damage Dealt on Turn 7 64,879 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage Dealt on Turn 7 73,719 in Crit/Det gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

-EDIT- Fixt the Parry Numbers I mis read it initially, and had reported 479 in Crit/Det gear. SORRY! =P

I will GLADLY take 4859 damage to gain a level 1 limit break every 6 minutes.

While I agree with you that Parry is a pretty crappy stat and isn't as good as most tanks hype it out to be, your testing method is totally flawed and the results are unusable.

There are HUGE uncontrolled variables in your test that aren't accounted for. If your overall DPS increased (eg. a week's worth of upgrades for your DPS), this would skew your Damage Taken and Damage Dealt since the fight would be shorter (and not just by virtue of your own damage increasing).

Unless your teammates performance was completely and exactly equal in both attempts (impossible), using Total Damage Taken and Total Damage Dealt as metrics to measure the value of Parry vs Crit/Det is not statistically sound.