Compilation: Capped Dungeons, pro and contra arguments

[RabidSquirrel]

Here's my problem (Which might have already been state, who knows):

Let's say you are just some rank 50 dude looking for a rank 30 piece of equipment just to use while leveling another class. You need to drag three other people along just to get it, and as a result, powering them through the dungeon. If you've ever played any other MMOs with uncapped dungeons like this one, lower level people will always be up for a high level dude mowing everything down. The one thing that keeps this system in check, however, is the fact that the high level dude would have to go out of his way to bring some people along, which most don't care to do. Well, that and most MMOs drop bind on pick up equipment anyways, and don't allow for multi-class characters. Unless that high level dude is a friend of yours, he most likely won't go out of his way to find lowbies to tag along. He'd much rather just go through it on his own time, when he wants to.

If there were no restrictions on minimum party size, I'd say keep the instances uncapped. But since they do have a minimum requirement, you might as well cap them. This is just some weird "middle of the road" system that I think should be changed in some way. I'd prefer an unrestricted party count over a level cap, to be honest. But I'd be fine with either.

[Rinsui]

and so is comparing it to other games

as i said, 11 is not 14, therefore, you can not state that it has to be an exception

every other game can be compared too as they are all different MMOs then 14

TheVedis,
what I *think* Rentahamster is trying to say is that there's a very important difference between the game environments of FFXIV/XI and other games that has to be taken into consideration. Other MMOs with a different system, in her opinion, do not need caps because it is not possible to abuse uncapped content in those games anyway (because you can't switch jobs).

Arrgh. And she beat me to it.
I'm slow -.-/

@RabidSquirrel
More-or-less covered already. But thanks anyway.

[Krausus]

Well, Vedis, FFXI did something different than most other MMOs, and in this context it serves as an example that a feature can work. The only problem I see is when the pro-faction claims that because feature X was in 11, it has to be in 14, too (which, up to this point, I think they didn't).



Hmm. I *think* the contra-faction claims that low-level gear and dungeons are (and should be) meaningless for a high level player anyway. Instead, for high level players (and, in extension, their low-level friends) the whole game challenge should focus on end-game, with mid-level content just being a transitory (and, with enough outside help: skippable) phase on the way to the top. So while some people want the whole game to be challenging, with no way to "cheat" your way to victory, others insist that the only real challenge should be endgame anyway.

Krausus, did I understand this right?

Btw:

In principle, something similar war attempted in FFXI with capped Balistas. So it's not completely ridiculous. A bad example, though, because Balistas died out pretty fast. A better example would be, perhaps, Vampiric Claws, obtainable only from a capped CoP area in FFXI. At least on my server, they were considered *pretty* cool, just because everybody knew about the hassle to obtain them. But that's only one example which doesn't really prove anything.

Not necessarily, personally I want there to be all levels of content not just an adjusted dungeon that allows all ranks to participate in at a set level. Why make a rank 35 40 45 or even 50 have to do a rank 25/30 dungeon to participate in content why not focus on creating a rank 35 40 50 dungeons? I think we all see how long it takes SE to implement something. But now that they have the combat system nearing completion I think they will be able to add more dungeons in a more timely manner. I would rather that then them focus on making the rank 25/30 dungeon the main focus outside of 45+.

I just really do not like limitations it upsets me to see FFXIV devolve into another clone of what is already available, why take away more options. I thought FFXIV would break the mold, releasing to early and the droves of the vocal screaming for another FFXI or WoW has completely ruined all chances for that. FFXIV is no longer the next best thing its just turning into another standard MMO to throw on the pile.

[Engineer]

I think it doesn't make sense that the dungeons are uncapped and you need a certain amount of people to enter. a lvl 50 cannot enter a level 25 dungeon unless 3 more players come.

My suggestion is alow the up to one player to enter , and have both capped and uncapped options, this will make everyone happy..

The biggest problem for me is waiting for players... I had enough waiting playing ffxi

[VydarrTyr]

Rinsui,

Thanks for wading through my ultra-long wall of text.

@Vydarr
- The argument about inventory space is already included in the list.

Looking through your list, there are a number of posts that have "Counter-Argument: none so far," which is misleading. There are counter-arguments, they're just addressed elsewhere. So maybe the language should be changed to "Counter-Argument: Addressed elsewhere."

No slippery slope, just a logical consequence of the "difficulty should be adjustable" argument. If players find an easier way to beat a dungeon (let's say, a manaburn of sorts) I think the fault is on SE's side, not on the player's. The latter only try to maximize their effort/reward equation. So yes, I personally believe exploiting weaknesses in the game system (pathfinding issues, "playing" with a monster's territory binding and such things) is cheating, but I fully understand why others would consider it "smart play" - because unquestionably, innovative tactics are involved. BUT that's only a personal opinion and not the issue of this discussion.

It is a slippery slope argument. The Counter-argument suggests that the logic of Point A would lead to absurd consequences if applied to Subject B. That's a slippery slope argument.

And yes, reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes an exploit, and they can also disagree on whether those exploits are "cheating." I -- and I think many others, including SE -- would not consider taking a r50 into a r30 dungeon to be "cheating." You obviously disagree, but I would respectfully submit that you're in the minority on that issue.

On player number restrictions: Definitely a point. Just imagine that during your "raid" someone DCs, and there's a puzzle requiring 4 players to solve. THE DRAMA. But, please accept that I consider this another topic. Things are complicated enough already.

Well, there's gonna be DRAMA no matter what happens.

I don't really mind the idea of puzzles that require multiple people to solve. If someone DCs, I think that's just a risk you run when you're playing an online MMO. It's a bummer -- especially since there's going to be a time limit before you can re-enter -- but it's a game, and not the end of the world.

But I do think the fact that you can't solo a dungeon is a counter-argument to the point about soloing at r50. While I'd like to be able to do it, it's not currently allowed.

Sounds logical, but once again defies the complexity of human nature (which are very well able to contradict themselves three times within a single sentence). Let me give you an example: Everybody in FFXI wanted artifact weapons (Spharai, Excalibur etc.). Few would have refused an Excalibur if it was given to them for free at the beginning of the game (I certainly wouldn't have...). So one could assume that, if SE simply had handed out free Excaliburs with every copy of the game, everyone would have been happy. Do you think that would have been the case?

I think people would have taken a free Excalibur. Like Renta said, I doubt that they would have valued it as much as if they'd earned it. But again, I think I've been unclear.

I don't disagree that people would usually prefer to get rewards the easiest way possible. In fact, that's probably the main sociological lesson in MMOs. If there's a way that players can get rewards more easily and quickly, they'll do it.

But the statement was that people will always get their rewards the easiest way possible. That's not true. I've made things intentionally more challenging, just for the fun. Some people fight NMs solo, just for the challenge. After the world NMs got boring, a LS on my server started mixing it up -- fighting without provokes, fighting without AoEs, etc. -- just to keep it fun and interesting.

I do think people will blitz through the r30 dungeons with r50 jobs. I will probably do it myself at some point. But I'll probably run them on my r30 jobs, too. Because I want the challenge. And I would honestly be shocked if none of the people here who say they want a challenge run the dungeons on their r30 jobs.

Hmm. And since we have no death penalty, they would have to level another job to 25 a little later, then another one...? Please clarify! I included the possibility to start a new character to participate in low level dungeons.

I think the fact that you have to start a new character is definitely a counter-argument, rather than a positive. You should get attached to your character, and want to use that character in all adventures. So I intended that to be a negative, not a positive.

The point I was making is that it doesn't take long to level a job from zero to 25. So, yes, some people will have to level another job to "get the challenge" of running the dungeons on a r25 character. But it wouldn't take much of a time commitment to do it.

But again, I don't think that negates the argument. It just points out that -- like rearranging macros -- it's a headache, not an actual bar to participation.

That argument is true once you take into consideration the overall balance of the game and the relative value of rewards. Rentahamster is on the right track, and clarifies one facet of the problem I assumed to be a commonly shared premise:
- Rewards obtain part of their value by their rarity. With easily-attainable rewards, you devaluate the rewards themselves. So proponents of level cap partially want to ensure that the world is not flooded with rewards obtained with no effort (see one of the pro-arguments about rewarding effort).

I don't disagree with this argument. In fact, I think it's a valid point, and a strong argument in favor of level capping the dungeons.

What I disagree with is the idea that people will always choose the easiest path to get rewards. But I've gone through that a couple times now, so I won't belabor the point (more than I already have).

[VydarrTyr]

- People would have to re-do all their macros. Which is not just a hassle, but impossible for players with several jobs at max level, because there simply is no macro space left to accomodate all the gearswaps, ability settings and different battle-macros. Counter argument: Since both abilities and gear scale down to your level anyway, you don't need to make any more macros.

This Counter-Argument is just false.

Weapons do not scale. Abilities do not scale. Gear and weapons degrade significantly faster; that's not scaled.

Right now, my Marauder macro includes abilities like Disorient II, Maim, Storm's Path, Defender II, Fracture II, Brandish II, and Bloodbath II. Those are all abilities you can't use at level 30. Those don't scale down to my level. You simply wouldn't be able to equip them on a r30 character. Go ahead; try equipping them on a r30 Marauder. They won't equip.

So you would need to make more macros. Because the old macros wouldn't work. If you use your old macros, you're going to have lots of blank spaces on your abilities bar, you're going to have gimped weapons, and you better be carrying lots of repair mats because you're going to need to repair all your gear and weapons halfway through the dungeon.

[Chinook]

Well, we agree to disagree.

The point was to get dev attention that working several months to create a uncapped dungeon that have high chance to not be fun + challenging + replayable + long-term rewarding is unproductive.

That goal is prolly achieved, and I hope they think twice before creating future content.

Thanks for the feedback and discussion, see you in Toto-Rak !

[BloodMage]

Awesome, good compilation!

I sit on both sides im afraid, either or i wouldnt really care. Just hope its a challenge non the less at R30~.

Really is up to the devs because they are the ones with the "plans" and they have a broader understanding of what they are doing with the game. We can only speculate.

I agree, SE is creating this game after all and not the community in here so it's their decision to either make the raids cap or uncap. All we can do is give them some feedback/comments so they have an idea on what will make the game fun for MOST people. In the end, let the dev team be creative with their own concrete plans while still utilizing feedback because sometimes I feel like some people in her wants to make the game in their way and not SE's.

[MeowyWowie]

This Counter-Argument is just false.

Weapons do not scale. Abilities do not scale. Gear and weapons degrade significantly faster; that's not scaled.

Right now, my Marauder macro includes abilities like Disorient II, Maim, Storm's Path, Defender II, Fracture II, Brandish II, and Bloodbath II. Those are all abilities you can't use at level 30. Those don't scale down to my level. You simply wouldn't be able to equip them on a r30 character. Go ahead; try equipping them on a r30 Marauder. They won't equip.

So you would need to make more macros. Because the old macros wouldn't work. If you use your old macros, you're going to have lots of blank spaces on your abilities bar, you're going to have gimped weapons, and you better be carrying lots of repair mats because you're going to need to repair all your gear and weapons halfway through the dungeon.

Of course you can't equip any of those on a R30 MRD. YOU HAVE TO LEARN THEM FIRST. You CAN however equip ALL of those abilities on any other of DoM or DoW at rank 1 once you've learned them. If SE didn't scale down ability points with everything else, there would be 0 problems. That would be the best design because you'd have a slight advantage by entering as a capped R50 but not godlike, and you wouldn't have to worry about any macros or abilities.

Also, the only equipment that wears excessively fast if you're under its optimal level is weapons and tools. Worst case scenario, you'd have to carry one extra weapon for capped content and mats to repair them. Though, that's hardly a deterrent to capped content if you ask me.

[Rentahamster]

Not necessarily, personally I want there to be all levels of content not just an adjusted dungeon that allows all ranks to participate in at a set level. Why make a rank 35 40 45 or even 50 have to do a rank 25/30 dungeon to participate in content why not focus on creating a rank 35 40 50 dungeons?

They can never create enough new content fast enough to please everyone. This is the problem that a lot of other MMOs fall victim to.

Therefore, it is prudent to keep even lower rank content challenging so that it doesn't get old too fast.