Honestly, let SE make as much money as they can.

[Shneibel]

You're right.
I consider it a micro transaction and it shouldn't be payed for with anything other than gils.

so in other words, if ppl against retainer service, they should against server transfer and Fantasia as well since they are all micro transaction. That mean if SE remove them all together and then everyone happy ?

Player ask for server transfer is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Fantasia is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Retainer service is micro transaction : BIG DEAL (had ask for this back since 1.0)

I dont see the sense in this complain

[KhalidTheGreat]

so in other words, if ppl against retainer service, they should against server transfer and Fantasia as well since they are all micro transaction. That mean if SE remove them all together and then everyone happy ?

Player ask for server transfer is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Fantasia is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Retainer service is micro transaction : BIG DEAL (had ask for this back since 1.0)

I dont see the sense in this complain

As I mentioned in a previous post, I consider server transfer a service and I don't mind them charging for them. Seeing that it's not an in-game item / privilege / advantage. Unlike fantasia.

But hey, that's just my opinion on this matter (i'm so tired of discussing this subject).

[Shneibel]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I consider server transfer a service and I don't mind them charging for them. Seeing that it's not an in-game item / privilege / advantage. Unlike fantasia.

But hey, that's just my opinion on this matter (i'm so tired of discussing this subject).

But what you consider is personally preference, in the end of the date they are all about transfer data, edit data & get more data and in a form of micro transaction.

and yes I am out of this thread as well as it get no where since we accpet each other opinion but we just cant agree with each other and the retainer servervice and fantasia will be on mog station and they are all optional. Peace

*Plant a C4*

[Manuka]

but it still micro transaction right ? I belive most of the post in here are against micro transaction since they are "payed customer in a p2p"

The problem is a bit more fluid than that. The issue isn't so much microtransactions themselves but how someone perceives the value of their subscription. We all pay a monthly premium with the expectation that we have the same amount of power within the game with the only thing separating us is the amount of time and dedication we spend in progressing our character. It's for this reason nobody really complains about money transactions for things like server transfers, fantasia, name changes and to some extent vanity (this is a bit of a gray area and depends on the person). All those services are superficial and don't impact anything meaningful within the game itself. The problem is that additional retainers, along with the announced ventures, will give you a slight edge over your peers especially if you enjoy crafting or playing the market. This deteriorates the perceived value of subscriptions for some, which is the crux of the whole issue and I happen to wholeheartedly agree.

Actually P2P is a cheaper route, one would pay significantly more in a F2P due to impulse buying.

That's definitely true. But what happens when you have a P2P game where you introduce the impulsive buying of a F2P? You get a dying game, just look to WoW. Granted they were smart to pull that out late into its lifespan when it had a very dedicated base that wouldn't leave, but all ya have to do is look to it's gradual bleeding of subs to know where it's headed. The thing is, I don't think the FFXIV base is strong or dedicated enough to withstand such changes if they move further down this path, it's just too young of a game. Like the thing that initially drew me (and I believe for others) was the low box price and the lack of a notable cashshop. If that changes I'll likely just leave cause while I enjoy the game, I don't like it enough to stay if I feel like my sub is pointless. Honestly I hope it doesn't come to that but SE are pretty damn notorious for making terrible business decisions that costs them a lotta money.

And thanks for the compliment

[Ikeda]

If you had taken the entirety of my comment into thought, you'd have known it was merely a logical argument point out the logical fallacy that simply paying a monthly subscription means you are entitled to everything in the present and future for free.

Umm yes your monthly fee does guarantee access to all present and future content. That's how P2P mmos have always worked. They don't make new content out of "charity" they do it out of necessity to keep people subscribed because anyone with half a brain knows people would quickly leave if they run out of things to do. In this economy and with P2P player's general hatred of F2P practices if they get greedy and try to double dip their customers they'll lose those subscribers very quickly and will be forced to shut down or dumb down to F2P. Just like every single mmo except for WoW that has tried that for the past 9+ years. If you think the base content of 2.0 without updates is worth $10-15 a month I'm sorry to say there's no nice way to put this but you're a freaking fool.

Also before you freak out and call me "cheap" I think name change, character recreation/race change (fantasia), yearly or bi-yearly expansion packs, and server transfer are fine because those services have always been part of P2P even before F2P screwed up the genre. Retainers are pushing it a bit but I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't give some sort of crazy advantage of exclusive stuff from the Venture system. Any sort of cash shop though whether it's vanity, xp/gil boosters, mounts, or pets will lose them more subscribers than those rip off shops could ever make them.

[ReiszRie]

Umm yes your monthly fee does guarantee access to all present and future content. That's how P2P mmos have always worked. They don't make new content out of "charity" they do it out of necessity to keep people subscribed because anyone with half a brain knows people would quickly leave if they run out of things to do. In this economy and with P2P player's general hatred of F2P practices if they get greedy and try to double dip their customers they'll lose those subscribers very quickly and will be forced to shut down or dumb down to F2P. Just like every single mmo except for WoW that has tried that for the past 9+ years. If you think the base content of 2.0 without updates is worth $10-15 a month I'm sorry to say there's no nice way to put this but you're a freaking fool.

Also before you freak out and call me "cheap" I think name change, character recreation/race change (fantasia), yearly or bi-yearly expansion packs, and server transfer are fine because those services have always been part of P2P even before F2P screwed up the genre. Retainers are pushing it a bit but I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't give some sort of crazy advantage of exclusive stuff from the Venture system. Any sort of cash shop though whether it's vanity, xp/gil boosters, mounts, or pets will lose them more subscribers than those rip off shops could ever make them.

so in other words, if ppl against retainer service, they should against server transfer and Fantasia as well since they are all micro transaction. That mean if SE remove them all together and then everyone happy ?

Player ask for server transfer is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Fantasia is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Retainer service is micro transaction : BIG DEAL (had ask for this back since 1.0)

I dont see the sense in this complain

@Ikeda

If you cannot be bothered to read through the past few pages of comments to have a background of the arguments raised, I honestly could not be bothered to tango with you as I really ain't interested in explaining to you the same arguments I have explained a couple of times in this discussion.

Monthly subscription does not entitle you to all future features, it was never ever promised or guaranteed, it is merely the assumption made by yourself of how it should have worked and it has absolutely no relation to reality.

You pay a monthly subscription for Cable TV but that still doesn't guarantee you to every new feature, channels and what nots created in the future. You pay a monthly subscription for internet but it still doesn't entitle you to future features and new technologies implemented why are MMOs different? why are MMOs judged so harshly then?

Monthly subscription in a MMO does not magically confer you supreme rights.

[Ikeda]

@Ikeda

If you cannot be bothered to read through the past few pages of comments to have a background of the arguments raised, I honestly could not be bothered to tango with you as I really ain't interested in explaining to you the same arguments I have explained a couple of times in this discussion.

Monthly subscription does not entitle you to all future features, it was never ever promised or guaranteed, it is merely the assumption made by yourself of how it should have worked and it has absolutely no relation to reality.

You pay a monthly subscription for Cable TV but that still doesn't guarantee you to every new feature, channels and what nots created in the future. You pay a monthly subscription for internet but it still doesn't entitle you to future features and new technologies implemented why are MMOs different? why are MMOs judged so harshly then?

Monthly subscription in a MMO does not magically confer you supreme rights.

It has always worked that way and will continue to do so because the majority of players won't stand for it otherwise and are more than willing to take their money elsewhere. You can scream otherwise until you turn blue and it won't change that fact. The only reason WoW gets away with it is the sheer amount of subscribers it has and it's been bleeding hundreds of thousands to 1 million+ players each year for the past few years. Every single other mmo that has attempted the same thing has either shut down or gone F2P because they don't have enough subscribers to withstand the massive loss of subscribers that P2P cash shops ALWAYS cause and remain profitable. If you think FFXIV could survive losing a few hundred thousand subscribers due to a stupid decision like that when it currently only has about 500k-1 mill subscribers on top of what little faith people already have in SE as a company you're freaking delusional. All it will take is one little screw up and this game will go under. It's had 2 chances and will more than likely never get a 3rd. As for your cable and internet examples different businesses work differently. Get over it.

[ReiszRie]

It has always worked that way and will continue to do so because the majority of players won't stand for it otherwise and are more than willing to take their money elsewhere. You can scream otherwise until you turn blue and it won't change that fact. The only reason WoW gets away with it is the sheer amount of subscribers it has and it's been bleeding hundreds of thousands to 1 million+ players each year for the past few years. Every single other mmo that has attempted the same thing has either shut down or gone F2P because they don't have enough subscribers to withstand the massive loss of subscribers that P2P cash shops ALWAYS cause and remain profitable. If you think FFXIV could survive losing a few hundred thousand subscribers due to a stupid decision like that when it currently only has about 500k-1 mill subscribers on top of what little faith people already have in SE as a company you're freaking delusional. All it will take is one little screw up and this game will go under. It's had 2 chances and will more than likely never get a 3rd. As for your cable and internet examples different businesses work differently. Get over it.

slippery slope fallacy.

it all lies in the implementation, cash shop in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing

there are no statistics, you have no statistic to back up your claims of a few hundred players leaving solely because SE offered retainers for sale, without solid statistics, I can similarly say a million players stayed because SE offered retainers for sale. Hyperbole only goes so far.

you are simply assuming that offering retainers for sale results in a "slippery slope" and you are simply assuming that all players who left WoW are due solely to Blizzard offering cash shop which obviously you couldn't prove even if your life depended on it.

Your simplistic understanding of MMOs are telling, I don't dare imply that I understand the inner workings of MMOs and game studios but I can see that you enjoy making sweeping generalizations of how MMOs work and their reasons for failing as though you are deeply involved in the higher management and is privy to their decision making process in all of the MMOs in recent history. If you can prove that, I'd take my words back.

cable and internet are similar to MMO P2P in principle, we weren't even talking about their difference business models to begin with so there is little merit in bringing that in.

the only thing here is people's misguided expectations for everything under the Eorzean sun to be given to them just because they subscribed.

lets have this discussion again when you actually have anything new or constructive to add.

[Ikeda]

slippery slope fallacy.

it all lies in the implementation, cash shop in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing

there are no statistics, you have no statistic to back up your claims of a few hundred players leaving solely because SE offered retainers for sale, without solid statistics, I can similar say a million players stayed because SE offered retainers for sale

you are simply assuming that offering retainers for sale results in a "slippery slope"

cable and internet are similar to MMO P2P in principle, we weren't even talking about business models to begin with so there is little merit in bringing that in.

the only thing here is people's misguided expectations for everything under the Eorzean sun to be given to them just because they subscribed.

lets have this discussion again when you actually have anything new or constructive to add.

First of all I'm not even talking about retainers. If you paid attention to the post you just quoted before the last one you'd see I'm mostly fine with retainers and have no complaints about fantasia along with a few other things I mentioned because they were always part of the P2P model. I'm saying anything more than that whether it's vanity, xp/gil boosters, mounts, or pet shops will cross into what P2P players see as double dipping and will destroy this game. If you need "statistics" look at what's happened to pretty much every new mmo to come out ever since WoW. Notice how basically every single one of them that started as P2P have either shut down or gone F2P? Notice what they all have in common? All of them failed either due to blindly copying WoW too much or trying to double dip their customers. ARR's already a little close to being too similar to WoW as it is. If they try to double dip their customers on top of that the game will die simple as that. SE can't afford to take that risk.

[ReiszRie]

First of all I'm not even talking about retainers. If you paid attention to the post you just quoted before the last one you'd see I'm mostly fine with retainers and have no complaints about fantasia along with a few other things I mentioned because they were always part of the P2P model. I'm saying anything more than that whether it's vanity, xp/gil boosters, mounts, or pet shops will cross into what P2P players see as double dipping and will destroy this game. If you need "statistics" look at what's happened to pretty much every new mmo to come out ever since WoW. Notice how basically every single one of them that started as P2P have either shut down or gone F2P? Notice what they all have in common? All of them failed either due to blindly copying WoW too much or trying to double dip their customers.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore.

You really can't say I'm OK with retainers but No to cash shop because Retainers and Phantasia honestly, are cash shop items.

If you are OK with Retainers and Phantasia then it supports my original point a couple of pages back that it all lies in its implementation and to dispell the fearmongering of cash shop = doom and gloom.