AOE Toggle Needs to GO

[Reika]

While I don't normally jump in on these sorts of threads, this change has me concerned. As several posters have mentioned before removing the AoE toggle restricts play further--and ultimately in my mind doesn't really solve the issue. Though we don't know specifically how it is going to be implemented, the most likely way has been stated several times before (e.g. Fire to Fire, Fire II to Firaga).

If that is the case, and we are given Fire, Fira, and Firaga in place of the spells we already have, in order to achieve the same versatility we have today with AoE toggle we will be required to equip at least two of the versions of the same spell. At present we can equip one and toggle with the AoE button. This makes every spell designed like this (regardless of change in action points) more expensive to equip because it takes 2 slots out of 30 instead of 1. Meaning to have full versatility in spells you're taking up about 6.67% of your action bar for just one elemental spell instead of 3.33% which it is now.

Further more, the people who complain about AoE toggle are likely going to still complain about the two actions because they will accidentally hit the auto-AoE spell instead of the single and become mad and frustrated. Right now, if you toggle AoE off, it stays off for every single spell you cast until you turn it back on.

I'm not very hopeful with this change--but I will reserve final judgment until I actually see it implemented.

@Bayohne--is it possible to get further details or an example of how some spells (offensive, defensive, debuff, buff and curative) will be addressed if this is already known?

(And, to everyone complaining about the time it takes for the AoE toggle button to come up--that's not a game mechanic issue, I still feel AoE toggle works perfectly fine. That right there is a problem with the UI and how sluggish it is, still. If that was your main complaint with the AoE toggle you should have raised an issue with the UI itself, not the AoE toggle mechanic.)

Agree with all. I even mentioned like, all of those points in the first anti-AOE toggle thread, without the %s. Bt they all got brushed to the side. There were other problems that could have added restrictions or penalties to selective AOE. Problem I see, people seem to want this rushed and not thought out, Even tho some claim to want things done right. people seem to really want everything rushed.

[Zezil]

just push emotion buttom when choose target before cast.This game system not support swap equip when fight like ffxi so it mean less to make alot combo of macro so just check on or off... that easy to control and... mage can't combo buff ability in pt by hate control -3-"

[ZhangoSqu]

Agree with all. I even mentioned like, all of those points in the first anti-AOE toggle thread, without the %s. Bt they all got brushed to the side. There were other problems that could have added restrictions or penalties to selective AOE. Problem I see, people seem to want this rushed and not thought out, Even tho some claim to want things done right. people seem to really want everything rushed.

I didn't have much of a chance to read through all previous posts--so I likely missed yours Reika--even though it seems I mostly reiterated your sentiments. To your point about people wanting things rushed, I cringe every time I see some of these proposed changes (and read some of the threads), a lot of people are really impatient. While their impatience is certainly justified to a point, I'd much rather see something done right even if it takes longer. Otherwise we'll have a repeat of last September's launch of XIV, but in patch form.

[Physic]

the biggest issue i notice, is this was the unique play mechanic of conjurer and thaumaturge. It looks like they are scrapping class having different play mechanics rather than building on it. This was something that made mage classes more unique instead of less. What are they going to add to replace the loss of a major job mechanic? what is going to be different about the basic styles of play of a thaum and a con? i hope they start adding like basic skills that alter basic playstyles, so being a mage is not as simple as just having different spells, and identical in every other way, which it looks like they are doing.

[tachikoma]

people who dont' want AoE toggle are not saying they are too lazy to push the damn button, the button should have nothing to do with this change. The problem is that its harder to balance all aspects of a spell with the toggle:

how much MP should a spell cost? does the MP change based on whats toggled? how does the system show you before you choose the desired spell if u can cast it? How much emnity does it generate /w or w/o aoe toggle?

ex. you have 30mp, you need 24 to cast Sacrafice III. But wait you wanna click AoE toggle now it costs 124MP and the spell fails? this is the kind of clunky play that the button creates. The way around this was making aoe/single target the same MP which SUCKS this creates a zombie of THM's main healing afk style by spamming Sac-II all day long.

[tachikoma]

the biggest issue i notice, is this was the unique play mechanic of conjurer and thaumaturge.

almost certain that they are not going to allow cross class jobs to use aga version of mage specific spells I would not worry about that part. They will make them job specific. I think removing aoe toggle also allows them to further define what a CON vs THM is rather then the only current distinction being CON gets a crappy AOE circle where THM gets a monster cone.

ie, a CON can now get CURAGA III where a THM might only get Curaga-I. Allowing CON to be further developed into a main healer and THM being a more effective enfeebler type mage.

[darkstarpoet1]

people who dont' want AoE toggle are not saying they are too lazy to push the damn button, the button should have nothing to do with this change. The problem is that its harder to balance all aspects of a spell with the toggle:

how much MP should a spell cost? does the MP change based on whats toggled? how does the system show you before you choose the desired spell if u can cast it? How much emnity does it generate /w or w/o aoe toggle?

ex. you have 30mp, you need 24 to cast Sacrafice III. But wait you wanna click AoE toggle now it costs 124MP and the spell fails? this is the kind of clunky play that the button creates. The way around this was making aoe/single target the same MP which SUCKS this creates a zombie of THM's main healing afk style by spamming Sac-II all day long.

actually this is about people that are not smart enough to click the button. it has little to do with being lazy and much more to do with being fail at that job. the biggest complaint throughout this thread was people accidentally forgetting they have aoe on and attacking other mobs. that is fail on the user not fail on the game.

your example is fail in the aspect they already have the spell cost seperated and works just fine when using spiritbind to half the mp cost and it works fluidly. it would be a simple fix to have the single spell cost the same as what a spell does while under spirtibind and the aoe versions be the normal cost. then casting aoe spells costs twice what the normal single cast spell does. all you guys want is a change for the sake of change and could care less how it affects the rest of the game.

almost certain that they are not going to allow cross class jobs to use aga version of mage specific spells I would not worry about that part. They will make them job specific. I think removing aoe toggle also allows them to further define what a CON vs THM is rather then the only current distinction being CON gets a crappy AOE circle where THM gets a monster cone.

ie, a CON can now get CURAGA III where a THM might only get Curaga-I. Allowing CON to be further developed into a main healer and THM being a more effective enfeebler type mage.

thm is vastly superior to con in its healing abilities. it is much more useful in a party as a healer.

[ZhangoSqu]

You have some good points Tachikoma, but nothing you've brought up here couldn't have been addressed while maintaining the AoE toggle button functionality. It would require modifications to the UI, but still, removing the AoE toggle requires some UI modification any way. I just don't think that the arguments for removing AoE toggle are very good.

If you're worried about different MP costs, the toggle for AoE could be changed from a button to a "spell selection" which functions the exact same way, but instead of a green button you see something a bit more descriptive, e.g. [AoE Off] "Fire, MP: 10, Enmity: X, Recast: Y, ..." and then [AoE ON] "Firaga, MP: 15, Enmity: X+N, Recast: Y+N"

There is virtually no difference between this and the argument for separating spells into distinct equipable actions except in the fact that it creates less clutter on the action bar and you can be more versatile with the types of actions you equip. Further, SE could restrict the ability to toggle spells to AoE further, right now its just carte blanche "No AoE" for disciples of war, but there could be more advanced criteria that also apply to other disciples of magic, for example your suggestion that a THM might only be able to do single and AoE Cure I/Curaga I but not higher level Conjuer cure spells.

[Kiara]

Hi Zhango, Reika,

I made this post buried somewhere in the page 30s section, but this is one thing that I can see the developers going for that isn't about pushing an extra button or not:

Hi All (and Thanks Bayohne for the clarification!) ,

There are definitely pros and cons to both systems, but one thing that this could do is allow Spells to have more unique characteristics.

I know the argument right now for many is "Well Cure II (w/ AOE Toggle) = Curaga, it just takes an extra slot now." That may be true but other types of attacks / skills are separated this way currently in various games.

For example, in most FPS games, there's a:

* Hand Pistol - Single Target
* Shotgun - Spread Shot, Short Distance, Massive Damage
* Rocket Launcher - Huge AOE, Big Damage

Would it be nice to have a Hand Pistol with an AOE Toggle, to hit 1 Enemy, or All Enemies in an AOE Cone? Sure. Would it be nice to have a Rocket Launcher that was Single Target and did massive damage to a Single Target with No Splash Damage? Or Toggle it to be AOE? Sure.

But that's what makes the Hand Pistol, or the Shotgun, or the Rocket Launcher what it is.

Same for Gladiator Weaponskills like Red Lotus (Single Target) vs. Circle Slash (AOE) vs. Luminous Spire (Hits 1 Target, AOE Blind). Red Lotus and Circle Slash are the exact same animation. Would it be nice to AOE Toggle Red Lotus or any Weaponskill whenever you want to? Sure. But we accept that "Red Lotus is a Single Target Horizontal Slashing Weaponskill" and "Circle Slash is an AOE Horizonal Slashing Weaponskill."

I think having these differences (without AOE Toggle) is what might make the Mages feel more unique, with different spells. Let's say, Cure I, II, will be Single Target, but, say a new Spell, "White Wind" is a curative spell that heals everyone in an area for an amount inbetween Cure I and II (so a 1.5 level of strength). That's the inherent quality and uniqueness of "White Wind" then.

Now, we can only hope that the Battle Team has more interesting effects / augmentations than just making 1 spell Single Target, and 1 spell AOE. But like the examples above, I can see why they want to do away with the toggle. I'm fine with either system, but let's see what the changes are to all the Mage Spells before we go crucifying the team.

[Kiote]

lol You people speak as if the player community is going to allow you to not play inside the predetermined "Job" of your class. Do you not remember XI? It wont matter if you can use AOE on none mage jobs because you will be kicked out of your party if you even consider casting a spell as a melee within 3 months of these battle changes.