Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

I apologize for not reading through the entire thread, but the argument seems silly. The whole point of having levels is so that players can become more powerful and better able to defeat "weaker" enemies and challenges as they progress. No one is calling for all Quests or eves to scale to level, but that is the logical extension of the argument that is being made. If content always scaled to the level of the player, then there would be no purpose in even having experience based progression. There has to be easier challenges for their to be harder ones. A player that levels with a group of friends from the beginning and first confronts the lv30 dungeon with his friends will be genuinely challenged as long as he wants to be. As he and his friends progress and go back to the dungeon 10 or 20 levels later they will be able to feel how they have progressed. That kind of meaningful progression is what makes a role playing game distinct in the first place.

that works for single player RPGs.. MMOs are different because they need to keep people's attention and try to keep everyone entertained for them to keep playing. If the only progression is based on your level (just vertical progression) then the game gets boring real fast and the devs cannot put out content fast enough to keep people entertained.

Capping events provides an interesting way to keep people challenged even when they go help lower level. A new player that joins much later when everyone is high level would have a lot of trouble to find a group of lvl 30s to run the dungeon with him to have a feel of challenge. yet if it was capped, he could have higher level friends come and help but still be provided the challenge the dev designed the content for when it came out. Makes the content last longer, the challenge stays forever and the devs did not work for nothing.

[Vanguard319]

I apologize for not reading through the entire thread, but the argument seems silly. The whole point of having levels is so that players can become more powerful and better able to defeat "weaker" enemies and challenges as they progress. No one is calling for all Quests or eves to scale to level, but that is the logical extension of the argument that is being made. If content always scaled to the level of the player, then there would be no purpose in even having experience based progression. There has to be easier challenges for their to be harder ones. A player that levels with a group of friends from the beginning and first confronts the lv30 dungeon with his friends will be genuinely challenged as long as he wants to be. As he and his friends progress and go back to the dungeon 10 or 20 levels later they will be able to feel how they have progressed. That kind of meaningful progression is what makes a role playing game distinct in the first place.

True, if you want to enter a dungeon at a suicidally low level, with similarly ranked friends, that is your descision, just as it is your descision to enter alone at a marginally higher rank.
In the end, it is left to the individual player to decide HOW they want to tackle the dungeon.

[Roaran]

Why do people think this r30 dungeon is going to be challenging even for r30 groups? Kind of lost here....

It has to be balanced for new r30s. Anyone with a r50 class will not likely be challenged very hard. Still cannot believe people have forgotten CoP and just why they recently removed these caps.

[Renshi]

Why do people think this r30 dungeon is going to be challenging even for r30 groups? Kind of lost here....

I think for the same reason on why you think it won't be =)

[Zdenka]

Honestly why do you care what other people do. It doesn't really effect you at all, and you won't ever know if they ran it with 30s or 50s. For example lets use FFXI and I have a Kraken Club I got from BCNM or LoO or bought w/e. How does me having this piece of gear effect anyone that I do not play with in any way?

It doesn't.

It doesn't make me claim Nidhogg better so that you have less claims, it doesn't let me magically find all of the Coffers first. It does not effect anyone I do not play with in any way, shape, or form. So the point of having 50s run through the instance for 30s again, doesn't mean anything to anyone really. Its their choice, respect that.

If you want to do it with 30s, fine; if you want to do it with 50s, also fine. You must also realize this is mid-game content for PS3 goers at some point in the future, where they may group up with each other and do it as intended. They can't just overload L50 content and have nothing to do for the new (hopefully) surge of players PS3 will bring to do while getting there.

Most MMO's I go to do NOT have people powerleveling random groups through instances, and since this also gives SP I assume many people will deny the L50's to get some XP outside of Leves and Behest. I don't think its a problem leaving it uncapped, because again it doesn't effect anyone except those 4 people going.

[Overkill9000]

Why do people think this r30 dungeon is going to be challenging even for r30 groups? Kind of lost here....

It has to be balanced for new r30s. Anyone with a r50 class will not likely be challenged very hard. Still cannot believe people have forgotten CoP and just why they recently removed these caps.

they removed the cap?! it's fun at high level even with cap... maybe to go with friends and be challenged just as much as they are. not fun to go with lower lvl friend and be way too OP. instances are meant to be group efforts not soloable, otherwise they might just as well remove the number of required members too.

[Teknoman]

Why do people think this r30 dungeon is going to be challenging even for r30 groups? Kind of lost here....

It has to be balanced for new r30s. Anyone with a r50 class will not likely be challenged very hard. Still cannot believe people have forgotten CoP and just why they recently removed these caps.

Why would it not be challenging for rank 30 groups? Thats the point of a dungeon. Fight/think to solve or complete challenging conditions, and then go up against challenging bosses. Or was the bolded a typo?

[Verecund]

I agree with the idea of "scaling down" a player's level according to the instanced challenge completely, as it simplifies almost everything.

First, it keeps content challenging and interesting, thus allowing for more things to do when players have nothing else to do

Second, it keeps people from getting outright powerleveled.

Third, and fairly important in my opinion, is that this could allow for abilties and spells to be consolidated. Instead of multiple ranks of the same spell involving additional balancing and tweaking across the board, a level modifier could be applied to each ability or spell which scales in greatness as you level. When you step into a dungeon or instance, that modifier can be tweaked according to the level of the encounter.
(this also helps significantly by eliminating the need for developers to design around downranking)

[Roaran]

Why would it not be challenging for rank 30 groups? Thats the point of a dungeon. Fight/think to solve or complete challenging conditions, and then go up against challenging bosses. Or was the bolded a typo?

As I said, it will most likely only be challenging for players who only have rank 30 classes. It has to be balanced for them anyways. Having access to multiple classes' skills makes it far easier. There's still nothing stopping anyone from getting a group of rank 30s together and doing the dungeon. If you consider the required 4 players, it is still optimal for a group of rank 30s to complete the dungeon in order to maximize SP. In fact, despite having multiple r50s I plan on doing just this.

I just don't see the rank 30 being a challenge considering the skill level of most r30 players, it will probably be something equivalent to behest + a few interesting mechanics (hopefully) to spice it up. Most things in this game are not challenging. I have great hopes for the rank 50 dungeon, but this rank 30 dungeon, as it should, has to be watered down somewhat to accomodate the newer players.

I wrote this earlier, it seems still relavent as most people will skip 90% of the posts in here:

Going to bring a bit of reason to this thread so people reading this will not have an annurism.

I understand that, those who wish to have this specific dungeon level capped, are looking for a unique and challenging experiences. The R30 dungeon would be more likely to offer this if all party members are the appropriate level. The actual degree of difficulty is unknown at this point, but it's safe to say 4 level 30s will have greater difficulty than any combination of higher rank classes. Capping the rank, therefore, would then keep the difficulty roughly the same.

First, I would like to say, there is not much preventing any player from playing this dungeon only as a level 30 class. The obvious reason others want to cap the dungeon for everyone is to control other players' playstyles. Not necessarily for nefarious reasons, but it is true if the degree of difficulty is not the same for everyone, there is a lesser sense of accomplishment by arbitrarily choosing to engage an encounter handicapped. But the fact is, it is more to prevent other players from doing something than from wanting to do something your own way, as noone is stopping you from collecting a group of r30 players and trying the dungeon. However, there are limitations; if experience is offered in this dungeon, eventually all your classes will outrank the dungeon and you will never be able to attempt the dungeon the way it was intended. Although it is possible to level multiple characters, it is impractical to expect players to constantly level characters and classes to do so. It IS unknown whether experience is offered at the moment, so it would be pointless to speculate any further to this point.

Now for players wanting to NOT have this dungeon be capped. Obviously every player has their own preferences, so it goes without saying that some or many players will want to 'steam-roll' through this dungeon. It is their preference, and it hurts noone outside of those who agree to group with them and those who feel their experience lessen others' own achievements. Not much more could be said to this point.

That said, this dungeon is intended to be a stepping stone. I don't believe it was intended to be seen as endgame content or some kind of dungeon for players to continually experience. More likely it will offer decent experience for r25-35 players and the chance to acquire gear to advance them into the higher levels. In short, it is an alternative to leves. The required 4 players for this dungeon make it optimal for a party of 4 to all be the appropriate level, as to maximize their SP.

In other words, the dungeon will be incentivized in a way that makes players want to be r25-35. However, if they choose to have a r50 in the group, they gain nothing other than a quicker run potentially at the cost of some SP. My point is, if you want a sustained challenge, look foward to the r50 dungeon, this r30 dungeon is intended to be something else entirely. ALSO consider the delays that would have been caused by implementing the code to restrict skills of a certain level and reduce the caps of characters. I think when you consider all these points and you still want a cap for the NON END GAME 'stepping stone' r30 dungeon for it's 'challenge' (that will already be diminished as its balanced for brand new r30 characters), and still wish for it to be capped; then you are most likely to biased in this particular situation to see clearly.

And just to add... if you look at World of Warcraft, there are dungeons throughout every level of the game. I don't believe a single one limits the levels of the characters, yet, for the most part, these dungeons are done by groups of players around the intended level. They offer both superior experience and loot for a specific group of players ( according to the level of the dungeon ). It is not unexpected that the players routinely engaging in these dungeons are the appropriate levels.

Once these dungeons are implemented... there will be a massive # of players to attempting them. Whether there is a cap or not, it is likely the dungeon will be cleared within day 1. After a few weeks, even months, a great number of us will have done the dungeon and obtained all the gear we wanted. We may still go back to level other classes, but for the most part, everyone will move on. And like World of Warcraft, the vast majority ofplayers interested in these dungeons will be those new r30s characters, most likely players not even playing right now. That is how far SE must look foward.

Edit: I'd just add that I do plan on doing this on my lower rank classes, hopefully the SP is good. If it's not, I'll get the gear. And if the gear isn't good, I'll do it once or twice just to check it out. I don't really have a problem with other people doing them on their r50 classes... I don't see the point if the SP is good, but I'm also not really interested in how other people play either.

[Physic]

Honestly why do you care what other people do. It doesn't really effect you at all, and you won't ever know if they ran it with 30s or 50s. For example lets use FFXI and I have a Kraken Club I got from BCNM or LoO or bought w/e. How does me having this piece of gear effect anyone that I do not play with in any way?

It doesn't.

It doesn't make me claim Nidhogg better so that you have less claims, it doesn't let me magically find all of the Coffers first. It does not effect anyone I do not play with in any way, shape, or form. So the point of having 50s run through the instance for 30s again, doesn't mean anything to anyone really. Its their choice, respect that.

If you want to do it with 30s, fine; if you want to do it with 50s, also fine. You must also realize this is mid-game content for PS3 goers at some point in the future, where they may group up with each other and do it as intended. They can't just overload L50 content and have nothing to do for the new (hopefully) surge of players PS3 will bring to do while getting there.

Most MMO's I go to do NOT have people powerleveling random groups through instances, and since this also gives SP I assume many people will deny the L50's to get some XP outside of Leves and Behest. I don't think its a problem leaving it uncapped, because again it doesn't effect anyone except those 4 people going.

it does effect everyone, thats why they nerfed kraken clubs drop, put it in a BCNM and had to make many HNMs immune or gain immunity to soul eater.
all because of kraken club exploits.

its an MMO the items you can get effect everyone else. How everyone does things effect everyone else.
you played ffxi, they said they never wanted ninja to be a tank. you try to play ffxi with a ninja, and join a pt, and say im not a tank. they will kick you, or laugh at you, or curse your name in their ls.

if the dungeon is supposed to be hard for 25-30, really hard, people will auto adjust the level reqs to whatever they think is necessary for it not to be hard. the community will go, i know your 25, but i dont want to fail level 35+ only please.

you get one shot at the dungeon a day, people will not want to fail, they will force people to go at a level that guarantees victory if they have a choice. if SE actually wants people to do the content and it be challenging, a cap s what they have to do.

people are already lolmidlevelraiding the dungeon, they have no respect for it. they think its a joke, and look at it as lol worthy, thats what no cap does to content.