The tanking shortage reasons

[AmyNeudaiz]

The main 5 reasons I stopped wanting to tank and now only do it when I need Mythos:
1) DPS and healers are too rude to tanks too often. I get b*tched at if
-a) a mobs slip past me even if not at fault (attacking wrong targets or putting regen before flash/overpower)
-b) I take too long marking targets
-c) I don't mark targets
-d) I don't pull enough mobs
-e) I pull too many mobs
-f) I die regardless of fault
-g) I make any playstyle suggestion to others
^This list can go past Z but these are the most common to me

2) Too much is expected of me. I am expected to
-a) grab mobs if a DPS/healer pulls ahead of me
-b) stop every interruptible attack without fail
-c) avoid all AoE while not moving mobs for melee (the point here is you can't do both normally)
-d) position myself so that no one gets hit by any cone AoE*
-e) play and adapt according to others' playstyle

3) I get type casted automatically as being hostile just because I'm on a tank class. Others always just assume I'm angry even for politely asking someone to follow marked targets, asking anyone to do something a different way, or explaining what caused a wipe. I get told to "calm down" or asked "u mad?" so often on tank compared to when I say the exact same things on DPS or healer. (though I will concede the reaction to explaining a wipe is similar when on DPS)

4) I can't play how I want to. How many mobs I pull is up to the healer and determining how I get hate is up to DPS (AoE vs single target or just both at the same time). I like having structured runs that go smoothly rather than "do as you please" runs but it's so frustrating when people go against the grain for whatever reason that now I just yolo every pull not caring and just grab hate back if I lose it for whatever reason.


5) The only thing I don't get blamed for on tank is when something doesn't die fast enough.


*The reason I mention positioning is because people often get swiped at their own fault by stuff and blame tank for not positioning right. tanks are always expected to be mindful and adjust themselves according to wherever people want to move

[ExperienceLoader]

There's just a tank shortage in mmo's period. People who tank will be the tank in any game they play and it's hard for newer players to get into tanking. It's really intimidating for new players to take up tanking. When they run with a good tank, everything seems flawless. The tank holds threat, keeps his health up, pulls and positions correctly. Then a new tank tries it and he has trouble holding hate, he doesn't understand when to use his cooldowns effectively and his health drops a lot or he dies, he doesn't understand when and what to pull and ends up dragging extra enemies into the fight. Now he's embarrassed and most likely getting chewed out and shortly decides to give up tanking forever.

On top of that a lot of tanks talk about how easy it is because tanking is pretty standard across mmo's and even coming into a new game they have a pretty good grasp on what they should be doing.

[bokchoykn]

snip

I just want to reiterate that I'm not necessarily arguing against your points. I'm just bringing other factors into the discussion.


I realize that Paladin DPS is significant, and in many respects, theoretically on par with Warrior. However, when mathing things out and looking at raw numbers, there's always discrepency between theory vs practice. There are many other dynamics to it that aren't easily calculated.

Straight comparing Sword Oath vs non-Defiance is not practical because you don't bring a tanking class for a DPS role. You're going to be tanking at some point, and the difference in how WAR Defiance toggling vs PLD Oath Swapping is actually pretty significant.

There are also other dynamics such as the added risk of using a Halone combo while passing aggro to the other tank. Warriors can use Storm's Eye/Path combo or Fracture during these transitions without losing damage, while Paladins don't have that luxury.

Fight or Flight is a crazy DPS buff but Paladins are sometimes forced to use it while in Shield Oath, and that diminishes its value when it comes to damage output. Meanwhile, Warriors have Vengeance and Berserk, which augment each other and ensures that Berserk does not lose value when you use it while in Defiance. Paladins sometimes have to choose between using Fight or Flight for maximum damage (Sword) or snap aggro (Shield). Warriors don't have to deal with that dilemma. They get best of both worlds.

Paladins need be wary using Fight or Flight offensively shortly after passing aggro to the other tank. How comfortable are you using Fight or Flight and spamming your Halone combo immediately after a tank swap, especially considering the possibility that the other tank is a Warrior who is also trying to push damage and isn't necessarily spamming Butcher's Block? Warriors don't have this problem because they can simply use Storm's Eye/Path, which a small DPS compromise compared to PLD's using Riot Blade.

I know we both already agree that, in practice, Warrior damage is higher than Paladin damage but I think the gap between the two is actually higher than the theoretical numbers suggest.

I'm able to safely do 200-210 DPS in Titan EX a kill, without taking any unreasonable risks. I was only able to attain about an average of 160-170 on Paladin. My Warrior has an Allagan Battleaxe over my Paladin's Break Blade, but their gear is otherwise equivalent.

The enemy auto-attack is something like once every 2.5-3 seconds or so, which means that Vengeance provides an extra 250-300 potency per target per use. Since we're not talking AoE (where WAR is obviously king due to Overpower and SC actually dealing damage), you're talking about getting an extra 5.21-6.25 potency/GCD is you're using it on cooldown (and you don't dodge any attacks and the target doesn't use any magic attacks; since Vengeance is the strongest WAR tank CD, you'd be an idiot to use it on CD just for damage). Given that a WAR can expect to deal roughly 375 pot/GCD, Vengeance on CD is going to provide you with a 1.38-1.67% increase in damage dealt.

Vengeance provides a more substantial increase to damage over the short term than it does over the long term. Over the course of a long fight, when you're using it as a tank CD rather than a damage mechanism, its contributions are virtually unnoticeable in practical/observable terms. The only time I actually use it as a pseudo-DPS CD is at the start of combat to benefit from the Wrath stack so that I can unleash Unchained>Berserk>IR 2 GCDs earlier than I would otherwise while getting an extra ~50 pot/GCD for the opening.

Vengeance benefits from things like Maim, Berserk, Internal Release, Unchained, Storm's Eye, Strength Potions. Offensive cooldowns augment each other and the offensive benefits of Vengeance is no exception. I realize that these damage gains are tiny, but if we are to crunch numbers like this, we should probably be complete about it. We can't ignore things just because it's a tiny 1.5% increase.

I know I'm probably splitting hairs here, but if your calculation of 1.38-1.67% increased damage dealt is based on 50 Potency per 2.5-3s, but the 375 Potency / GCD includes calculations for Berserk, Maim, Storm's Eye, etc... Vengeance potency should include these factors too.

That's why I said "roughly" equal. It's important to note that PLD has a crapload (silence, CD-less stun, Pacification, Cover) more utility than the WAR, which is where the damage inequality is made up from a balance perspective: WAR has better damage, but PLD has better utility.

With current content, I don't actually consider these things highly valuable outside of Shield Bash in T5 and I guess Spirits Within in T2. Come 2.2 with the introduction of Leviathan and Turns 6-9, these utility benefits might become more valuable, but for all we know, we can just as easily have bosses that heal themselves/each other (Storm's Eye healing debuff) or bosses that can be bound (Holmgang). AoE threat (and damage) might become more of a factor too.

On the topic of utility, what I consider to be the biggest utility benefit in Paladin's arsenal is Hallowed Ground. While most Paladins only think of it as an "Oh Shit" button that is meant to be to be used when they're two seconds away from certain death, it actually has some pretty amazing applications when it is strategic planned ahead of time, as a utility tool and not an "oh shit" button. I think this is the single greatest benefit that Paladin has over Warrior.

On a relatively interesting note, a PLD in Sword Oath running with a WAR without Defiance maintaining the SE debuff actually manages better DPS than the WAR since the gap between the two is less than 10%. The attribution gets kind of funky because you have to decide whether the increase in the PLD's damage should be credited to the WAR (since they're providing the buff) or the PLD (since it wouldn't be affecting a WAR secondary tank and the WAR would be applying the debuff for themself anyways), but it's something of an interesting little factoid to bring up, especially to those people that want to complain about PLD having utterly abysmal damage regardless of their state.

Definitely. I find it ironic that the people who are most critical about Paladin damage are Paladins themselves. "Who cares about my DPS? I'm a Paladin, not a Warrior!" If only they knew what their own class could do.

[TemariVtwo]

DPS is the path of least resistance in MMO's. It takes more effort on the player's part as a whole to perform above average in the roles of Healer and Tank than it does to perform above average in the role of DPS. There's more things going on that you have to be on top of. There's more responsibility in the roles of Healer and Tank. There are more people that don't want that effort and responsibility than there are people that do.

[Kuroyasha]

Ohhh snap there's another who loves walls of texts! xD

I picked up tanking after i got in depth with dps and healing(just finished leveling my final battle class(war) to 50 ). Naturally I knew dungeons by then almost like the back of my hand. Finding a new love for melee dps as monk, I became mindful of my positioning as a tank to always benefit the melee(so annoying in aurum vale when a tank wants to keep an enemy in a poison pool :/). If I make mistakes I just say my bad/my fault and move on. I'm also pretty friendly so I don't bite others heads off, but give them advice since I play other roles/classes in depth.

If people pull aggro (regen etc) I just get it back and ask them not to do that anymore. One thing I cant stand though is when a member runs AWAY from me with a mob chasing them, making me have to chase while moving enemies out of position. Another is when DPS and heals wanna pew pew and medica/regen/whispering dawn right when Chi/Sup spawn in Extreme. OMG that is the most annoying stuff as any class i play really.

[bokchoykn]

DPS is the path of least resistance in MMO's. It takes more effort on the player's part as a whole to perform above average in the roles of Healer and Tank than it does to perform above average in the role of DPS. There's more things going on that you have to be on top of. There's more responsibility in the roles of Healer and Tank. There are more people that don't want that effort and responsibility than there are people that do.

Really?

I personally feel that playing DPS takes a lot more effort than Tanking or Healing in this game. I have to work a lot harder as Monk than I do with Tank or Healer. This is both in terms of execution in an actual battle and in terms of figuring out how to optimize my damage output via math and testing.

[AmyNeudaiz]

Really?

I personally feel that playing DPS takes a lot more effort than Tanking or Healing in this game. I have to work a lot harder as Monk than I do with Tank or Healer. This is both in terms of execution in an actual battle and in terms of figuring out how to optimize my damage output via math and testing.

Depends on what you're doing. Fight Turn 4 as OT, Titan EX as a Whm, or Twintania as Sch and tell me again that DPS is the hardest. DPS also have it super easy on any dungeon.

[juniglee]

Really?

I personally feel that playing DPS takes a lot more effort than Tanking or Healing in this game. I have to work a lot harder as Monk than I do with Tank or Healer. This is both in terms of execution in an actual battle and in terms of figuring out how to optimize my damage output via math and testing.

Melee DPS is a role with its own set of challenges. The easiest DPS classes to play are usually BLM or BRD.

I have a Level 50 BLM, and all I do is Fire 3 -> Fire 1 spam, Blizz 3 for mana, use Fire 3/Thundercloud procs when they happen. Magic DPS also requires much lower accuracy for the most parts, so it's impossible to miss with them.

I just got my Archer to Level 30 yesterday, but up till that point, all I feel I am doing is checking Venomous Bite debuff, Straight Shot buff, off-GCD skills and procs, otherwise it's just Heavy Shot spam.

I have a Level 50 DRG, and I'm still working on my rotation for that, but for BLM and at least ARC 30, they're really braindead, easy to play, and do a lot of damage.

[Swagcity]

Reasons for tank shortage?

Tanking is boring in this game. Plain and simple.

^^IMO, it is snoring boring.

[bokchoykn]

Depends on what you're doing. Fight Turn 4 as MT, Titan EX as a Whm, or Twintania as Sch and tell me again that DPS is the hardest. DPS also have it super easy on any dungeon.

I've done every fight in the game as every role, with the exception of Twintania which I've only done as a Tank. BTW: I only have Monk as DPS so I can only speak for DPS from the perspective of one class

Melee DPS has a low skill floor but a high skill ceiling. The degree of difficulty and effort to punch and kick things is very low. The degree of difficulty to be an exceptional melee DPS and push your DPS to the maximum is much higher. I guarantee you that the number of actions performed, amount of movement, and the number thought processes a really good Monk or Dragoon has to go through over the course of a Titan EX fight is higher than WHM.

A Monk can choose not to put forth this much effort, his DPS output will suffer, and his teammates will probably not even notice and assume he did a good job because he survived the whole fight. However, a good Monk does all the little things knowing that the difference between 220 DPS and 300 DPS could be the difference between winning and losing.

You're right, though. It does depend on what you're doing.