Gridanian Religion vs Reality: How much do the Hearers really hear?

[PArcher]

I think we may have a different definition of "tons". I don't feel the lore (or the world in general) supports thousands and thousands of adventurers...there just would not be enough work for everyone, and all these monsters and the like just wouldn't exist anymore (assuming a relatively balanced "level" distribution); there's no way the Beat Tribes would be able to breed that fast if there were hundreds of seasoned adventures hunting them down daily, for example. Yes, there are always those "low-level" people running around, and I feel they're who the Guild was made for; try to get them work they can handle just so they can survive another day.

But for those past a certain point in their career (say, level 20 seems fair, though probably even less)? There just cannot be. It makes no sense from multiple perspectives. I'd guess most past this point are part of the Grand Companies, working for them primarily rather than going at it on their own.




Yes, there are multiple Job Crystals (very first PLD quest you're given one from the Roe and another you keep), but, you are the only one, lore-wise, out adventuring. Take Dragoons; there's probably hundreds of DRG soul crystals in Ishgard...but there is only 1 outside. If anything, PLD is the one where there could be multiples out adventuring and being successful; SMN is a possibility too, but they'd all be self-taught, and more likely thralls to the Ascians rather than adventurers.

And for your party in Operation Archon...lore-wise, they were probably picked from an extremely small pool of talent (hence, being "elite"), it may be that there isn't really anyone else past them that can do this job (say, there's 10-20 total adventurers that could go with you, and these 7 were the best of them)


If there really were so many seasoned adventurers...many of the problems with wild animals and the Beast Tribes just wouldn't exist due to overhunting, and competition between them would be incredibly fierce...yet there is none presented in the story. In fact, outside of a few points early on and with one group of retired adventurers...others just aren't mentioned much in the story at all.

[Umbeliel]

Snip snip snip
4. Until SE says otherwise, it would seem inter-race relationships can't have children, so the only way for Miqo'te to continue to exist lies with the precious few males (more of a reason why the females would keep them hidden safe at home).

This actually has been done. I don't have the post offhand, but there are in fact cross breeds and they are very common according to a post we got..... Fairly long ago.

We won't be seeing them in game though because that would be a nightmare from a development standpoint.

EDIT: I found..... One of the old posts. But I swear there was another one that actually mentioned that it would be difficult to implement them in-game and also that they were common.

[Celaine]

Since it came up about why aren't the elementals doing anything about all the chaos in the Twelveswood, this probably explains a fair bit: http://youtu.be/hnZo5o0PfD0 (Is a CS between Kan-E and Raya-O). Before the Calamity even hit, the Garleans had found a way to butcher a large number of the elementals. (Considering their extreme distrust of beast tribes and anyone possessing the echo, makes sense with strange beings that they can't control.) At least we presume it's the Garleans with some of their magitek monstrosities already invading the fringes of the forest, it's one of those undefined things, alas. And then further that with the Calamity that destroyed so much of the wood and reshaped it... and there's far fewer elementals to rage at tresspasses. It's a case of "give someone an inch and they'll take a mile". People know the elementals are in decline, so let's just see how much we can get away with.


This might also answer the question of why isn't Kan-E helping with the ritual in the 2.0 whm storyline. She knows that she's taking her life into her own hands by returning to the city to see to the safety of the people and she knows the risk of greenwrath is too great, and yet she goes anyway. It's quite possible that her own share of greenwrath for putting the needs of the people above that of the elementals would make her unsuitable a candidate to help.

[Gurpsmeister]

What I gathered from not only the Gridanian stories but the CNJ story / WHM story as well was that the Elementals are extreemely powerful but loosing that power. They don't for lack of a better term, often agree or unify and are exceptionally difficult to not only understand but to communicate with in general. What they desire and how they express it are so alien to the people of Eorzea that they sort of have to..feel their way through it, listening to the chaos of the voices and discern what they can and make their best judgements from there.

I don't think that if someone were to litter in the shroud a herd of giant angry plant beasts would suddenly show up to exact revenge, but they could. The spirits are insanely unpredictable. Again, this is from what I've gathered. It's more of a dance of trying to stay ahead of the elementals and keeping in their good graces, thus the constant fear and perhaps zealotry considering the whole forest could flip its lid for no apparent reason

[RolandDebreton]

My apologies in advance, I've been at work for a week and have only had my phone to read these conversations and have been unable to respond to many of the things here. However, I very much wanted to respond to Merwyn Ederi (FJerome). That all being the case, this is my response, and its… pretty big.

I have always found it amusing that Gridania is targetted by many player/commentators as being the most insular and xenophobic of states. Specialized adventurer divisions exist for each of the city stats in their military/social divisions, but Limsa Lominsa calls their out as the 'Foreign Levy,' along with the Privateers (pirates, fishing boats etc) and Ul'dah refers to theirs as the 'Foreign Brigades,' along with the very looked-down upon, Ala Mhigans. Only the Gridanian divisions place the Yellow Serpents (formed strictly of adventurers) along with all the other military divisions of the Twin Adders. Couple that with the fact that they are honored with the very animal symbolic of the city-state and you have a very welcoming imagery for outsiders.

There are a number of average citizens in Gridania that can be overheard feeling animus toward outsiders, there are soldiers in the Adders that could just as soon do without another adventurer. Then, one could also say that there are racists and xenophobic individuals in nearly every group in our own world and their shortcomings do not serve to identify the larger group.

The Elementals

Then, there are the Elementals. I think they are more realistic and primeval than you give them credit for. They represent the will of nature as it were. It is a system designed to protect itself so naturally it will be picky about who it chooses to interact with. If nature was given a measure of sentience and was allowed to manifest in power it would to my thinking be very like what has been imagined in the Elementals.

Humans are in their essence very similar. We in our existence have had a measure of social evolution that has made us defensive toward outsiders while defensive of those that belong to us, call it tribal nature, pack order or whatever you wish. This is the nadir of social order and was necessary for our survival throughout most of our existence.

This existence is humorously examined in The Croods recently, the father figure, seeing much of his species dying off became very cautious and insulated his family from danger and outsiders. It was seen as necessary measures for survival.

According to Papylamo, based on Sharlayan teaching, all of nature has a measure of Elemental sentience. This is concentrated most heavily in, as some others have pointed out, one of the most naturally dense places on Eorzea, the Twelveswood. What would any life do, but follow its most basic instinct to protect itself? Elementals are instinct incarnate.

Spoken in the Twelveswood

I would examine the system of Gridania and the surrounding settlements related to it, as being a modified symbiotic relationship. The forest saw benefit in interacting with the Moogles. What that was, I have no idea, and doubt we'll ever be able to examine it from a story point of view. However, they formed a very basic tribal relationship.

The Moogles saw the attempts of the Elezen, the Ixal, the Hyur and then all of the remaining immigrations to live in the forest, and saw the forest rebuff them. It was a very good response, left unchecked Spoken tend to be rather destructive. The Moogles went and served as a mediator to allow interaction of the early Elezen and subsequent Hyur settlers, and demonstrated to the Wood how they too could be part of the tribe. This is the lore, a system of truth, falsity, myth, legend, speculation etc. This is what it told us about this early symbiosis. Using verbiage like 'propaganda' to describe this system of lore is a bit disingenuous, it’s the system of knowledge that we have to work with.

We have also been told that, of the Five Races, Elezen settled the forests of Eorzea first. Relative to time 5000 to 1400 years ago Miqo'te began their migration into Eorzea proper. Human migration and settlement began in earnest some 500 years prior to our present time. I'm confident at this point that SE has done some redaction and revamping to the storyline. In my opinion, the Twin Adders concept of Elezen/Hyur communal building isn't what the initial 1.0 lore was hinting to, however history is being rewritten and relative to our characters, that in the new reality. Gridiania is 500 years old or so by this estimation, and was largely the product of Elezen and Hyur. This does not diminish the roles of the Miqo'te and Lalafell (and the comparatively small number of Roegadyn) that have moved in and helped to populate the region since. It is however, the reality of the situation. Keepers, as far as we know at present, are a late-breaking member of the party in Gridania.

Elemental Religion

Early on in this thread someone pointed out that the Elemental/Gridanian symbosis isn't religious in nature. I agree in large measure. It is not the formal religion proper of Eorzea encapsulating the rites, and concepts of the polytheistic religion of the Twelve. Nor is it entirely in keeping with the religious nature of the adherence to Hydaelyn.

However, I like that they captured the essence of the symbiosis in much the same way that we would speak were this real, with a religious tone. There are prescribed rituals of dance, and offering. There are festivals to please them, methods to appease them, rites to evoke them, rules to avoid their wrath. I stood in Old Mih Khetto's Amphitheater, before the Calamity, wearing a mask fitted with a jewel and the prescribed rituals and I danced there to receive remission of my Greenwrath, not that anyone remembers. There is definitely a religious quality to the experience of interacting with the Elementals.

The people of Gridania are syncretistic-polytheists, however. There is room in their philosophy for Hydaelyn to be the Mother of the World, for the Matron to be their patron, guide and support, and for the preservation and the honoring of the Will of the Elementals.

Interestingly, Hydaelyn is allowing us to reside in Her world, The Twelve are letting the Five reside in their Land, and the Elementals allow the Gridanians to reside in their Wood. These syncretistic, symbiotic, and covenantal relationships are a repeated theme: I'll let you live here, but I expect this. Its very old school theology, the basic covenant.

Looking at it in a New Light

I will say, after logging a lot of quests in Gridania, both before and after the Calamity, that only the most ignorant of Gridanians sees the Elementals in terms of true godhood style divinity. I think they have a deep, almost religious respect, and they clearly revere and fear their power. However, I do not think they believe they are gods in the classical Western sense that many of us would understand the Twelve to be.

Its difficult for some Westerners to split these theological hairs, but in Eastern religious concepts spirits are everywhere, and they are seen in this religious light: Worthy of respect, reverence, honor, ritual. They are not omnipotent world shaping luminaries of our pantheons. Nothing like the Egyptian Ennead or Ogdoad, nor warrior divines forging reality from nothingness like the Aesir, nor divine children shaping reality from chaos like the Olympians, and are certainly not like Semitic or Arabic representations of supreme divinity. Gridanian Elementals are spirits in a very Eastern way, and the customs that form around them will be very similar.

The Padjal are not the priests of the West, they have far more in keeping with a priest of the East. The Elementals are not gods or divines, but spirits seeking to protect their own. Look at these things that way and you'll likely understand Gridania a good deal better.

If you understand Japanese culture and history and how it works, see your Keeper in light of being a second or third generation European, after having made first contact with Japan. It took quite a while for the insular thinking to give way to syncretism but it happened. Japan has since learned to radically love and include a great many Western concepts. In much the same way Fufucha is a vital part of the life and society of Gridania, as is a certain young Miqo'te lass in the archer's guild.

An Example in Closing

Pawah Mujuuk, however, is not included in Gridanian society. They are a poacher and a thief. Lets look at it another way. The Dutch move into a region of Japan in the early parts of the Edo era and start attacking the priests of a Shinto temple who are trying to keep them from poaching their livestock, and destroying their fields. The locals would likely hire and send ronin and members of the military would be sent as well. Gridania hires adventurers and sends the Wailers and the Quivers.

For me, looking at Gridania not from the gabbing and gossip of a few smallfolk, but from getting to know the people in charge changed my mind on a great many things. Also, viewing it from an Eastern standpoint gave me a huge, "Ah ha!" moment, and made me love the land even more.

[Catapult]

I like your analysis. This is however, one thing I would like to point out that I think supports your arguments.

Elemental Religion

The people of Gridania are syncretistic-polytheists, however. There is room in their philosophy for Hydaelyn to be the Mother of the World, for the Matron to be their patron, guide and support, and for the preservation and the honoring of the Will of the Elementals.

Gridanian Lore says that Nophica, the Matron, created the Twelveswood as a home for the elementals. Thus is it their home first and the spoken's home second. For comparison, a term we often use in Australia is "native title", indicating a recognition of the land's original owners, whose thoughts and wishes must be considered then using the lands on which we reside.

By honouring the Elementals, the Gridanians believe they are by consequence honouring Nophica herself. As such, their reverence is highly connected with the worship of the Twelve rather than deviant from, but in a very honour the spirit kind of eastern way.

[Felis]

Maybe the Elementals ARE part of the Amdapori Civilization.

Amdapori died because they tried to play god, who knows, the Elementals maybe nothing more then advance AI still operating, which were made by the Amdapori to guard their secrets, secrets that lead to their destruction.

Amdapor existed during the 5th astral era, got destroyed in the 6th umbral era.
If i remember it right from the 1.0 WHM quest (I still need to do them in ARR), there was a war between white mages and black mages at the end of the 5th astral era. The elementals got very angry about the mess and stoped it with a big flood, that was known as the 6th umbral era. Thanalan was once a forest before it.

[FJerome]

Thanalan was once a forest before it.

I've been side-eyeing that bit of canon for a while because Thanalan looks like an exceedingly healthy desert to me. It's probably just bad science on SE's part but "there's more than one type of functioning ecosystem, damn it!" is a pet peeve of mine.

[Enkidoh]

In 1.0 it wasn't healthy, it was a rocky, barren, desolate wasteland. In fact, there was a 1.0 quest which involved helping out a group of ecological activists who were trying to re-forest Thanalan, but found that monsters (specifically, dodos, whom they ask the player to kill for them), were constantly undoing their efforts at planting seedlings. They also confirm what Felis said about Thanalan originally being a forest.

So yeah, just because post-Calamity might show part of it looking healthier (Southern Thanalan especially remains barren), doesn't mean it was like that five years before.

[Felis]

So yeah, just because post-Calamity might show part of it looking healthier (Southern Thanalan especially remains barren), doesn't mean it was like that five years before.

Yes

As example: