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  1. #1
    Player
    Aldarin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    100
    Character
    Aldarin Blackwing
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50

    Job System Compromise

    So there are many current complaints about the class system and a lack of specific roles for party play. That more than anything seems to be the reason why SE is implementing a Job system. I do believe that implementing one weapon per job would ruin the game for a large number of players. There is actually an easy way to resolve this, which has been suggested in past posts, with a 2-tier job/class system.

    The system could keep the current idea of classes unlocking jobs after a certain level, the only difference is that after that jobs would not be linked to classes. Thus a player would choose what role/job they want to play, and then choose a weapon to go with that job. This leaves the freedom available from the armory system, but also provides party-specific roles for players.

    Granted some job and weapon combinations would not work as well as others, but sometime a non-traditional weapon can give a non-tradition.
    Thus you could be traditional and play a Paladin/Gladiator or you could be non-traditional and play a Paladin/Marauder. Both jobs are viable options, only the Paladin/Gladiator would focus more on Defense and the Paladin/Marauder would focus more on offense.

    The only hope I have is that SE takes their time in order to produce an effective and unique system that pleases players. Given the amount of time spent waiting, I believe the player base would prefer a well-thought out system, even if it takes longer. SE really only has one chance to redo the job/class system, and it could quite easily break the game.

    As for a contrary point to some other comments.

    I am not a big fan of the Armoury System. I think it is a convoluted mess that strips away the "Role" in Role-Playing-Game. All SE really did with this system is to allow people to play as a WAR/WHM, MNK/RDM, DRG/BLM or any other abomination of traditional (read effective) Party-Based Play without being ostracized, humiliated and bullied into changing their subjob.

    Since our skill sets are private, we can play as any lame setup we desire and since battles are so chaotic and over so quickly, no one notices how badly someone is leaching and not really contributing. Now, I am no Elitist and I really don't care what or how anyone plays as this game is VERY solo-friendly so experiment all you want and create a Frankenstien Monster Hybrid if you wish but there will always be peer pressure (elitism) when it comes to Party-Based Content and it is specifically for Party-Based-Content that the new "Jobs" are being created for.

    No Party will want a Lancer/Paladin (unless no Glads are available).
    No Party will want a Pugilist/Paladin (unless no Glads are available).
    No Party will want a Conjurer/Dragoon. (period)
    I feel that this attitude is very small-minded. Granted, there are no specifics for party role specification, but that doesn't mean the solution is over-specification. Many people like to explore in games and have freedom, which is why games like Fallout 3 are so popular.
    While not traditional plays, the aforementioned job/class combinations all bring benefits to the party. A Paladin/Lancer would lack some of the defensive power of a traditional Paladin/Gladiator, but would also make up for it with increased damage and use of Speed Surge or Life Surge, providing greater regeneration over time. A Paladin/Pugilist is the equivalent of a PLD/NIN in FFXI, which would have been awesome if it could hold hate, and was the solo choice for many a paladin player. It was also used in some raids as the preferred main/sub of choice for a tank As for Dragoon/Conjurer, mixing a melee and a mage class doesn't tend to work well, but I can still remember the fun times I had with my DRG/BLU, where with another DRG/Mage we could keep a party healed even without a Healer. Add in a DNC or /DNC for aspir drain and there was literally no downtime for the party.
    (0)
    Last edited by Aldarin; 06-21-2011 at 03:38 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Davorok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ul'Duh
    Posts
    640
    Character
    Davorok Byrmwilf
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 52
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldarin View Post
    I feel that this attitude is very small-minded. Granted, there are no specifics for party role specification, but that doesn't mean the solution is over-specification. Many people like to explore in games and have freedom, which is why games like Fallout 3 are so popular.
    While not traditional plays, the aforementioned job/class combinations all bring benefits to the party. A Paladin/Lancer would lack some of the defensive power of a traditional Paladin/Gladiator, but would also make up for it with increased damage and use of Speed Surge or Life Surge, providing greater regeneration over time. A Paladin/Pugilist is the equivalent of a PLD/NIN in FFXI, which would have been awesome if it could hold hate, and was the solo choice for many a paladin player. It was also used in some raids as the preferred main/sub of choice for a tank As for Dragoon/Conjurer, mixing a melee and a mage class doesn't tend to work well, but I can still remember the fun times I had with my DRG/BLU, where with another DRG/Mage we could keep a party healed even without a Healer. Add in a DNC or /DNC for aspir drain and there was literally no downtime for the party.
    My post probably came across as an Anti-Solo rant which it is not. I actually solo most of the time (as an Archer) because I can and I enjoy it. I like that peeps can solo effectively as (almost) any Class-Combo they desire. I have no problem with that and encourage it.

    I am simply trying to point out that as more Party-Based Content becomes available and especially because Yoshi has stated that this content will be challenging and will reward "Strategy and Effort" that we will most likely end up with "elitism" in PT setups, Gear Setups and Ability Setups. And I also have no problem with this either.

    Just because I can do whatever I want while Soloing, does not mean I can do whatever I want in a Party. I fully expect to be "bullied, scoffed and shamed" into adhering to what a party desires if I am going to join them for a tough fight. That's just the way it is.

    In it's current state (which we all seem to agree sux) FFXIV is just a "Zerg-Fest" like WoW, and others. It doesn't matter what your job/class/skills are (except you almost always need a tank & healer). The majority (vocal majority anyway) wanted more well defined classes/jobs to defeat well designed monsters/dungeons that require strategy over DD (zergs).

    This appears to be what we are getting with the new Job System, Dungeon Raids and possibly Company Quests as well. The current Class System will remain relatively intact for Solo-play (sandbox mode) but the higher tier Dungeons will likely devolve into Specific Party Setups and Class/Job Skills, especially due to the 60 min. time constraint. People want to Win, not laugh about Epic Fails due to someone who refuses to "conform" to what works.

    I am mostly thinking of random PT's though. I am sure LS mates will have a blast trying to win with "Frankenstein Monster Abominations" And I am ok with that too.
    (0)

    Papa was a rolling stone...wherever he laid his barbut was home.





  3. #3
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Davorok View Post
    In it's current state (which we all seem to agree sux) FFXIV is just a "Zerg-Fest" like WoW, and others. It doesn't matter what your job/class/skills are (except you almost always need a tank & healer). The majority (vocal majority anyway) wanted more well defined classes/jobs to defeat well designed monsters/dungeons that require strategy over DD (zergs).
    Have you actually fought things in WoW? I mean beyond just Deadmines or Ragefire Chasm. That's a pretty bold claim, and one that would also get you laughed out of any raiding guild.
    the higher tier Dungeons will likely devolve into Specific Party Setups and Class/Job Skills, especially due to the 60 min. time constraint.
    Again, why does it have to be this way? Why must the choices of individual players get tossed out the window? A job system is not an excuse for such a thing to happen. Was not in XI and is not here.
    (0)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  4. #4
    Player

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Have you actually fought things in WoW? I mean beyond just Deadmines or Ragefire Chasm. That's a pretty bold claim, and one that would also get you laughed out of any raiding guild.
    Again, why does it have to be this way? Why must the choices of individual players get tossed out the window? A job system is not an excuse for such a thing to happen. Was not in XI and is not here.
    But it happened. And it will happen again. Because of the distribution of personality types drawn to MMOs.
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Lerris View Post
    But it happened. And it will happen again. Because of the distribution of personality types drawn to MMOs.
    Again, this won't happen or will be very minimal if you balance the classes and jobs in a way that they're interchangable in their respective roles. You facilitate pigeonholing when you design classes poorly (FFXI's BST and SMN being examples), leave lingering problems unresolved (Red Mage's innability to melee in party content), or simply sit on your thumbs for no good reason (blink tanking). The worst of it comes when you create shallow utility for a job, like THF had to endure being there only for treasure hunter, though were otherwise worthless during a boss encounter.
    (0)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)