Fencer > Red Mage/Mystic Knight concept

[DarkStar]

Yep, here I am again, with yet another concept for a class that is just as likely to be completely opposite what SE is planning as it is to be anywhere even close to what they're planning.

Actual class and job concepts to come after the break...

Note: The abilities and traits are sorted in no particular order. I'll figure out what order they'd be learned in later, along with things like the Relic Reborn and class/job questchains.

Base Class: Fencer
Category: Disciple of War
Weapon Type: Rapier+Parrying Knife (Parrying Knives are like Gladiator Shields, providing Block and about a third of the weapon stats).
Role: DPS/Debuffer
Class Abilities

Flametongue: Above-Moderate fire-element damage. Intermezzo: Briefly Increases damage dealt.

Icebrand: Moderate Ice-element damage. Intermezzo: Inflicts Slow for a few seconds. Using Icebrand three times in a row inflicts Chill (Moderate potency DoT).

Thunderblade: Moderate lightning-element damage. Intermezzo: Very short duration Silence. Using Thunderblade three times in a row inflicts Shock (Moderate potency DoT).

Gaea Sword: Below-Moderate Non-elemental damage, Circular AoE. Intermezzo: Inflicts Heavy.

Windslicer: Below-Moderate Non-elemental damage, ranged attack. Intermezzo: Rasp (Moderate potency DoT).

Excalibur: High Non-Elemental damage. Intermezzo: Reduces target's Strength and Intelligence by 5% each.

Arcane Burst: Consumes all stacks of Finale on the Fencer to deal damage. Moderate base potency, small potency boost per Finale stack consumed.

Chaining Strikes: Increases attack speed for a short while. Moderate cooldown.

Riposte: Increases Block Rate and Block Strength by 30% and 20% respectively for a short period of time. Long cooldown.

Pommel Bash: Moderate damage, inflicts Stun for a few seconds (on par with trait-boosted Shield Bash). Consumes 2 stack of Finale.

Aspir Blade: Your next ability is an automatic critical hit, and all the damage dealt is restored as MP. Moderate-Long/Long Cooldown

Healing Chant: Heals for a Below-Moderate amount, improved by Attack Power. Costs MP.

Vital Strike: Moderate damage, improves critical-hit rate. Consumes 2 stacks of Finale, Short cooldown.

Heart Strike: Very high damage. Consumes 3 stacks of Finale, long cooldown.

Preparation: Gain 2 stacks of Finale. Moderate-Long cooldown.

Disarming Strike: Above-moderate physical damage and inflicts Pacification for a few seconds. Consumes 2 stacks of Finale.

Perfect Parry: Damage taken reduced by a third for a few seconds. Long cooldown.

Traits

Magic Sword I: The third Magic Sword skill used in a chain will do more damage than normal, and the second Magic Sword skill used in a chain will cause the Intermezzo effect.

Magic Sword II: The third Magic Sword skill used in a chain will do a lot more damage than normal, and the Intermezzo effect is now enhanced.

Increased Strength I/II/III

Grand Burst: Arcane Burst's bonus potency is increased by a little more per Finale consumed than normal.

Improved Preparation: Preparation now grants 5 stacks of Finale.

Greater Enruin: Enruin's damage bonus is doubled.

Perfect Riposte: Riposte's bonuses to Block rate and Block strength are increased by half.

Featherblow: All crits increase Auto-Attack speed by a small amount for 12 seconds.

Featherblow II: All crits increase Auto-Attack speed by a greater amount than rank 1 for 12 seconds.

Notes

-Fencer works by making three-hit "Chains" with it's "Magic Sword" skills (Flametongue, Icebrand, Thunderblade, etc). Starting at level one, the third "Magic Sword" skill used in a chain will provide the "Finale" buff. The Finale buff has a 30 second duration, and increases critical hit rate by an additional 1% per stack, with the buff capping at 5 stacks.
-With the Magic Sword I trait, the second Magic Sword skill in a chain will cause its Intermezzo effect, while the third Magic Sword skill in a chain will cause increased damage in addition to the Finale buff. With Magic Sword II, the Intermezzo effects are boosted, as is the damage with the third Magic Sword skill.
-Though they deal elemental damage, Fencer's Magic Sword skills are all classified as Physical Attacks. Thus, targets immune or resistant to physical damage will be immune or resistant to the Magic Sword skills, while targets immune or resistant to magic will take full damage.
-Excalibur is noticeably more expensive and more powerful than Flametongue, the idea being that it be 'spammed' for periods of spike damage.
-Flametongue, Icebrand, Thunderblade, Gaea Sword, Windripper, and Excalibur all cost both MP and TP.
-Healing Chant is intended to be inferior to a Cure cast by a Conjuror, and to be expensive enough that spamming it will make it difficult to use Magic Sword skills, AKA, the Fencer's primary means of offense.
-Chill and Shock are meant to give the player a reason to use something other than Flametongue for single-target damage.

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Job 1: Red Mage
Classes: FNC 30/PGL 15
Role: DPS
Relic Reborn:

Job Abilities

Doubleskill: When used, the next Magic Sword skill is 'stored', and then the second Magic Sword skill used will cause increased damage and activate both skills' Intermezzo effects. Total potency is equal to the sum of both skills' potency plus another 25%. Moderate cooldown.

Deathblossom: Moderate physical damage. Combo action: The second Magic Sword skill in a chain. Combo Potency: High. Combo Bonus: Raises Magic Sword skill potency by 25% for a few seconds. Provides 2 stacks of Finale.

Imperil: Increases the duration of the user's Chill, Shock, and Rasp DoTs. Long cooldown.

Enruin: Increases damage dealt by a moderate amount for a short while. Consumes 1 stack of Finale, Moderate-Long cooldown.

Aetherial Surge: The MP cost and potency of all Magic Sword skills are increased by 20% for a few seconds. Long cooldown.

Notes

-Deathblossom is intended to be powerful enough when used properly that it's a competitive option to using Excalibur as the third skill in a chain, being cheaper and having a useful bonus. For pure damage, however, Excalibur is still the better option.

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Job 2: Mystic Knight
Classes: FNC 30/GLD 15
Role: Tank
Relic Reborn:

Job Abilities

Runic: While active, the damage taken and dealt by the Mystic Knight is reduced, enmity caused is increased, and multiple abilities* are modified. Using the ability again turns it off.

Decoy: All of the target's Enmity caused is transferred to the Mystic Knight for a short duration. Medium/Medium-Long cooldown.

Wall: All damage taken by the Mystic Knight for a short duration is reduced by 90%. Very long cooldown.

Elemental Burst: "Detonates" the user's instances of Shock, Chill, and Rasp, inflicting damage equal to 80% of their remaining potential damage, and deals increased enmity. Consumes 1 stack of Finale, Short cooldown.

DeBrave: Lowers damage dealt by the target by 25% for a short duration. Moderate-Long/Long cooldown.

* Class Ability Modifications: All Magic Sword skills gain "Additional Effect: Increased Enmity", and both Riposte and Perfect Parry have their effects enhanced.

Notes

-The reductions in damage taken and dealt by Runic would be somewhat greater than what Defiance does, mainly because with Fencer as a base class its defensive bonuses from gear aren't as great as a base Tank class would get.
-Decoy is meant to allow the Mystic Knight to peel monsters off an ally who maybe was a little too enthusiastic with their DPS or healing.
-Wall would probably either last a bit longer than Hallowed Ground or Holmgang or have a shorter cooldown, so as to make up for the fact that TECHNICALLY the Mystic Knight can still die even while it's active.

The reason most of the class and job abilities lack hard numbers is because I felt that describing their intended effect is both just as effective and (hopefully) doesn't require quite as much number crunching, something I'm not as good at as some other people on these forums *coughkitrucough*.

[Kitru]

Weapon Type: Rapier+Parrying Knife (Parrying Knives are like Gladiator Shields, providing Block and about a third of the weapon stats).

Yoshi has already said that weapon pairs like this will most likely be a single slot, as opposed to separate slots, since, unlike shields, you actually can and *should* be using your parrying dagger for attacking (otherwise it might as well just be a shield instead of a dagger). Having offhand weapons affect primary weapon damage gets a bit wonky so it's easier and more balanced to simply have a single slot for both weapons (imagine if shields affected the damage/healing of PLDs, BLMs, or WHMs; it would basically require 2 slots to get the benefit that everyone else gets from 1). Even if they were split up, I honestly doubt that they would have *parrying* daggers provide block, instead of simply providing bonus parry.

Role: DPS/Debuffer

Debuffer isn't really a role and, even if it were, you didn't actually provide much in the way of debuffing; most of what you have it doing is DoTs.

Concerning the names of your attacks, Flametongue already exists in the game as a GLA weapon (drops from last boss in Qarn). You may want to move away from using the names of classic swords from the series and instead come up with actual names for the attacks, especially if you're looking to play upon the Italian/classical music theme.

[quote]Icebrand: Moderate Ice-element damage. Intermezzo: Inflicts Slow for a few seconds. Using Icebrand three times in a row inflicts Chill (Moderate potency DoT).

Thunderblade: Moderate lightning-element damage. Intermezzo: Very short duration Silence. Using Thunderblade three times in a row inflicts Shock (Moderate potency DoT).[quote]

I realize that you want to create a system where you have a really fluid attack string set up, but requiring certain effects after using an attack 3 times in a row is just bad design. The entire point behind the combo system is that you're *not* just repeatedly using the same attack over and over again; you're weaving attacks between each other. If you want to get across the point, have the benefit apply only if you make it the third attack in the string, like you did with the Intermezzo effect.

Thunderblade is especially badly designed because you're requiring back to back uses of your silence (which triggers DR and is used for specific fights) in order to get access to one of the DoTs that's assumed to be active as part of your DPS.

Arcane Burst: Consumes all stacks of Finale on the Fencer to deal damage. Moderate base potency, small potency boost per Finale stack consumed.

Remember that you have Finale providing a buff to the user. Since you've got Fencer as a DPS, the damage for it needs to be high enough to justify the loss of the buff until you've regained those stacks while also being low enough that it's not a ridiculously oversized amount of burst damage.

Riposte: Increases Block Rate and Block Strength by 30% and 20% respectively for a short period of time. Long cooldown.

2 problems with this. It should be parry, not block, because you don't block with a parrying dagger or rapier; you parry with them (blocking with a sword is a terrible idea because it refers to outright stopping the blade completely, which, since you're blocking a sword, means that you're letting them gash your sword and take chunks out of it, if not outright breaking it; neither rapiers nor parrying daggers were designed to be especially bulky so they couldn't take the punishment blocking would espouse). Secondly, a riposte is a counterattack, not a defensive maneuver: it's parry>riposte. Riposte should be an attack like Haymaker or Shield Swipe that is triggered after a parry. This would probably make more sense being referred to as some kind of self-directed Protect or shield.

Pommel Bash: Moderate damage, inflicts Stun for a few seconds (on par with trait-boosted Shield Bash). Consumes 2 stack of Finale.

Really shouldn't consume Finale stacks. If it's on the GCD, which you seem to want it to be, it's perfectly fine for it to have no GCD because that's the benefit you get for it interfering with the rest of your attacks.

Healing Chant: Heals for a Below-Moderate amount, improved by Attack Power. Costs MP.

I'm not sure if you want this to be a self heal or a targeted heal, but, if it's a targeted heal, it'll create some potential balance issues, especially if it's improved by attack power and, as such, able to heal noticeably. Even if it's a self heal, since it doesn't have a CD, it still creates issues because you'd be able to heal yourself back up reasonably easily because the heal improves at the same rate as your damage does (unlike Cure/Physick for PLD/BLM/SMN which is basically worthless because they don't have the MND).

Magic Sword I: The third Magic Sword skill used in a chain will do more damage than normal, and the second Magic Sword skill used in a chain will cause the Intermezzo effect.

Magic Sword II: The third Magic Sword skill used in a chain will do a lot more damage than normal, and the Intermezzo effect is now enhanced.

I would definitely look into making the specific reference to using a Magic Sword ability already used as part of the Magic Sword chain breaks the Magic Sword train. Even if it were as simple as not being able to use the same Magic Sword ability back-to-back, it would be a dramatic improvement in playstyle because you're not letting people get away with just spamming the same button over and over while still getting visible results.

Greater Enruin: Enruin's damage bonus is doubled.

You listed Enruin as a Red Mage ability, not a Fencer ability. This trait is completely out of place.

Featherblow: All crits increase Auto-Attack speed by a small amount for 12 seconds.

Featherblow II: All crits increase Auto-Attack speed by a greater amount than rank 1 for 12 seconds.

I'm assuming you meant this to be a passive trait that's active at all times, which would mean that this is broken as *hell*. Increasing attack speed means that you can fit more attacks into the same 12 second time frame, especially since you're also increasing crit rate with Finale. Unless you simply want it to be a constant benefit, at which point you might as well just make it a passive benefit, it's really something that should probably be replaced with something else. ACN/SMN/SCH gets away with a similar trait because it's based off of pet *auto-attacks* and it only buffs the owner instead of the pet that activates it.

-Fencer works by making three-hit "Chains" with it's "Magic Sword" skills (Flametongue, Icebrand, Thunderblade, etc). Starting at level one, the third "Magic Sword" skill used in a chain will provide the "Finale" buff. The Finale buff has a 30 second duration, and increases critical hit rate by an additional 1% per stack, with the buff capping at 5 stacks.
-With the Magic Sword I trait, the second Magic Sword skill in a chain will cause its Intermezzo effect, while the third Magic Sword skill in a chain will cause increased damage in addition to the Finale buff. With Magic Sword II, the Intermezzo effects are boosted, as is the damage with the third Magic Sword skill.

I highly recommend rebuilding the Magic Sword system you've put together here completely. As I said before, spamming the same 3 attacks in a row to get a specific effect is just bad because it's the same attack over and over. If you really want to have a system where there are no explicit t1, t2, and t3 attacks, you need to prevent attack spamming to benefit from the system.

Also, not every attack should have an Intermezzo. Every class has at least one combo that is just straight up damage without anything else going on. The same should be true for this.

I really seems to me as if, in attempting to develop a more freeform system, you really only succeeded in making it overly complicated and not really all that freeform since there's so many requirements for specific actions, not to mention that, until you get Magic Sword II, you end up having a frequency disconnect between the end of the combo and the acquisition of Finale stacks because it's based off of 3 attacks from level one.

Do away with the "3 attacks in a row" requirements because that's just bad design.
Don't have Magic Sword modify the Intermezzo effects at all (tweaking damage works fine) and instead have each of the attacks have a specific Intermezzo and Finale effect (e.g Flametongue gets an Intermezzo damage buff and higher damage Finale; Icebrand gets an Intermezzo Slow and Finale DoT).
Don't be afraid to let some Intermezzo/Finale effects be highly situational and basically useless. You only really need 2 t3 finishers that you want to use regularly.
Diversify the Finale effects so that they're not just DoTs since having numerous combo based DoTs just governs what your actions are going to be, which is contradictory to what a freeform system should be.
Vary the damage of the attacks as well since, as it stands, you've got them all basically identical with the exception of their element and secondary effect (this is where listed potencies are great because you can actually list 150/140/160 etc. to differentiate between multiple "moderate" numbers). The lack of numbers also creates problems with gauging whether the DoT benefits are overpowered or not (recall that Full Thrust is 300 potency but Chaos Thrust is 200 with 300 over the next 30 seconds; a DoT finisher by necessity needs to have lower damage than a straight damage ability).

-Excalibur is noticeably more expensive and more powerful than Flametongue, the idea being that it be 'spammed' for periods of spike damage.

Actually, as written, it just becomes the attack you always use as your Finale since the damage gets multiplied by Magic Sword II. The Intermezzo isn't all that useful either since it's weaker than all of the similar debuffs at only 5%.

-Flametongue, Icebrand, Thunderblade, Gaea Sword, Windripper, and Excalibur all cost both MP and TP.

Considering that the only MP restoration mechanism that you provided is Aspir Blade, unless the MP cost is basically token, it's not going to really mean anything. Costing both MP and TP is also going to clutter up the action bar since it would have to list both.

It's part of this reason why I don't really agree with *all* of the attacks being Magic Sword attacks. It's a *Fencer*, not a Rune Fencer and it's a DoW, not a DoM. At the very least, the first few levels should just be straight up stabbing without any magic, which would require at least 1-2 attacks without any magical connotation.

On top of that, it means that if you run out of *either* TP or MP, you have absolutely nothing to do, on top of which, the only stuff you have that consumes TP also consumes MP, so why even bother with TP at all? GLA uses both TP and MP, but its abilities are one or the other so it can use Flash/Stoneskin if it runs out of TP or its other attacks if it runs out of MP and neither impedes upon the other. You seriously need to look into discriminating between TP consumption and MP consumption instead of just having them be constantly linked.

Doubleskill: When used, the next Magic Sword skill is 'stored', and then the second Magic Sword skill used will cause increased damage and activate both skills' Intermezzo effects. Total potency is equal to the sum of both skills' potency plus another 25%. Moderate cooldown.

Honestly, it seems like it would be a bit overcomplicated, not to mention have some weird animation effects. It might be better to just say that your next Magic Sword ability is off of the GCD and the damage is increased, which is basically what you're doing.

Deathblossom: Moderate physical damage. Combo action: The second Magic Sword skill in a chain. Combo Potency: High. Combo Bonus: Raises Magic Sword skill potency by 25% for a few seconds. Provides 2 stacks of Finale.

As a "standard" combo finisher, it doesn't really fit into the basic model you started with where everything was basically usable anywhere (and I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to create a specific finisher instead of letting it be a normal magic sword with a beefed up finisher). Whether this is overpowered or underpowered is another case of your lack of numbers creates all kinds of problems since it's impossible to determine what the relative contribution is: if the combos follow the 150>200>280 model that's about average, secondary benefit applying to 2 attakcs affords an extra 87.5 potency (which is still pretty high) whereas if it applies to 3, it's an extra 157.5 which, if it's high damage like you want it to be, could very easily turn it into the only finisher you ever want to use.

Aetherial Surge: The MP cost and potency of all Magic Sword skills are increased by 20% for a few seconds. Long cooldown.

Once again, the MP cost issue comes up since you have no other MP restoration mechanisms beyond Aspir Blade. I'm not entirely sure why you feel the need to increase the burn on one resource to compensate for the damage increase. 20% increase in damage isn't really all that much and it doesn't really increase efficiency.

The reason most of the class and job abilities lack hard numbers is because I felt that describing their intended effect is both just as effective and (hopefully) doesn't require quite as much number crunching, something I'm not as good at as some other people on these forums *coughkitrucough*.

Except that by describing effects only in the most vague terms you render any ability to compare those abilities basically moot. It's way less effective than giving bad numbers would be because, at the very least, bad numbers let you see *exactly* what the relative intent of the various abilities would be so that you can provide changes to those numbers while preserving intent. Numbers aren't just there to determine balance; they're there to indicate specific intent as well as relative effectiveness. Low, moderate, high, short, long, and "a few seconds" can mean so very very many things that it becomes next to impossible to actually gauge what the ability does in your mind.

[XanderOlivieri]

I would love for the Red Mage to be an actual mage and not some flashy swordsman. I know that the Red Mage can use swords, but its a class that supposed to be able to moderate black and white magic while not being able to master either. At the same time he's capable of using swords and heavier armor making up for his lack of magic proficiency by adding Melee capabilities.

So I'd rather a magic oriented class who can use a sword for its auto attack, but its main focus is spell casting and not magic sword arts.

[Shurrikhan]

I have to agree with Kitru on almost every one of her points, though, honestly, in greater context I find 'low'/'moderate'/'high' short easy enough to imagine intended uses of, though numbers would be nice. Keep in mind that potency is great in the sense that it's already relative. Just also keep in mind the build-up and intended dynamics of the class to know the highest you should bring those potency values to (most roughly speaking: like PGL, or like LCR?).

This is also just a personal preference, but I'd really prefer to see abilities less hinged around near-purely magic attacks. Let the magic play off them, but you needn't make a fencer an elementalist. Abilities with multiple elemental connotations each would also work fine--Alight (Fire, Lightning), Glide (Wind, Water/Fire), Percussion (Earth, Lightning), Moulinet/Whirl (Wind/whatever), etc.--each with unique effects that lend themselves to strategies that can play into the elements eventually.

[Duelle]

I would love for the Red Mage to be an actual mage and not some flashy swordsman. I know that the Red Mage can use swords, but its a class that supposed to be able to moderate black and white magic while not being able to master either. At the same time he's capable of using swords and heavier armor making up for his lack of magic proficiency by adding Melee capabilities.

This design approach doesn't work in an MMORPG. It was tried in FFXI and what we got was...well, my sig says it all.

[Nahara]

in greater context I find 'low'/'moderate'/'high' short easy enough to imagine intended uses of, though numbers would be nice.

It's hard to put actual numbers to these kinds of things, since you can't actually test any of it to see if the numbers are viable. I rather like keeping the potency of such things vague so you look at the idea more as a general concept than hard theorycrafting.

[XanderOlivieri]

This design approach doesn't work in an MMORPG. It was tried in FFXI and what we got was...well, my sig says it all.

It seems to work pretty well with Thaumaturge, Conjurer, and Arcanist. If its not Magic oriented, its not a Mage. Based on the description provided, that is not a Red Mage as it shares nothing with the traditional Red Mage. Its just a swordsman that can use Magic imbued into his sword.

[Kitru]

It's hard to put actual numbers to these kinds of things, since you can't actually test any of it to see if the numbers are viable. I rather like keeping the potency of such things vague so you look at the idea more as a general concept than hard theorycrafting.

Providing numbers, even if they're not balanced numbers, provides more insight into a designer's mind than vague descriptors, especially when you have numerous attacks using the same descriptor with the potential (and even *need*) to have the values be different within that same descriptor (e.g. all of the "base" attacks should not have identical potency at every level) and a specific rotation/attack construct in mind. As written, it's impossible to construct a rotation because there isn't enough information to gauge: you don't list the most important durations or the potencies on the stuff that actually comprises the playstyle of the class/job.

If all you're looking to proffer is names of abilities and a general theme, vague descriptors work fine because that's all you're offering. If you want to actually design a *class* with an explicit playstyle, you need at least *some* numbers. Even if they're wrong, they still offer more insight than what you've given.

[Kitru]

It seems to work pretty well with Thaumaturge, Conjurer, and Arcanist. If its not Magic oriented, its not a Mage. Based on the description provided, that is not a Red Mage as it shares nothing with the traditional Red Mage. Its just a swordsman that can use Magic imbued into his sword.

Except that the classes you mention have always had magic as their sole useful function. Red Mages have *always* had meaningful non-magic damage. Red Magic may be the mixture of White and Black Magic, but a Red *Mage* has always been a generalist that is equally adept at using Black Magic, White Magic, and weapons.

An even bigger reason why a Red Mage should be a melee/magic fusion class is that Red Magic is the fusion of Black and White Magic but it's explicitly *weaker* than either of those schools of magic. Because ARR uses the trinity construct, for this reason RDM *has* to be a DPS class/job and, furthermore, cannot be a pure caster because, if it were, it wouldn't make sense: RDM would be throwing out straight up spells on par with a BLM. As such, the only way to marry RDM with the trinity construct is to bring it in as a melee/magic-fusion DPS that uses physical attacks as much as magical attacks: their *magic* is weaker than what a BLM's, but they make up the difference by mixing it up with their sword.

[XanderOlivieri]

snip

The Red Mage has always been a primary magic based user to replace a lack of a White or Black Mage. They have the physical aspect to make up for their lack of mastery in either side of the Arcane arts. Even their physical aspect is fairly low.

They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it.

They are supposed to focus on a balance between destructive and protective magic. Giving them the Enfeebling magic was a good step as its both offensive and defensive as it lowers the opponents offenses and defenses making them hit weaker and take more damage. I'd like them to continue to follow in this aspect if at all. The Red mage should only use Physical properties as a last resort. Though as a Physical fighter, they shouldn't be able to do more than say Pug or Lancer. As Mages, they shouldn't deal more damage than a Thaumaturge, and as a healer they shouldn't out heal Conjurer.

They should be similar to the Arcanist with more balance between protective and offensive magic mixed with Enfeebling magic. DoT management and and weakening magic as the main focus, dealing damage over time and allowing them to use some close combat offensive skills should be what they have if they have to have physical skills, but their magic shouldn't me sword magic, that's for a Magic Swordsman not Red mages.