[Suggestion] Do away with holy trinity in the long run

[Fendred]

Regardless of me being right on the exact numbers for the healer DPS, the fact remains many people I played with were giving praise to the ability of white mages and scholars to do damage during dungeon runs. This sentiment continued all the way up till end game.

I'm also well aware of "what kind of game" FFXIV is. I'm genuinely confused by why you would suggest that I didn't, considering I just stated I played similar MMORPGs for close to ten years, and if you look at my profile I've clearly been at end game for a significant amount of time.

Thirdly, I did not say they run with their tank stances constantly on. I said "Tanks on the other hand have markedly lower damage when in group because... " I was referring to when they are playing as a group. I assumed that the reader would recognize I'm talking about dungeons and other encounters where groups are necessary, and not merely grouping up for daily quests to get them done faster.

Lastly, I can see that you are very passionate about your current view points on the game, but you have clearly misread and misunderstood the context of my post. Nothing in my post was a rant or attack on the system. I was merely stating my perspective on the current state of affairs on the holy trinity in general and the fact that I don't believe there is any satisfying solution to the DPS problem without switching to a different system. The faster you down an encounter, the sooner you get the reward, so choosing roles that maximize damage output rewards the players the most. That is by no means the only reason people will play a certain class, but rather it is a reasonable explanation for why the ratio of DPS to tanks to healers is so much more heavy towards the DPS side of things.

[Kitru]

Regardless of me being right on the exact numbers for the healer DPS, the fact remains many people I played with were giving praise to the ability of white mages and scholars to do damage during dungeon runs. This sentiment continued all the way up till end game.

Which is less about the ability of healers to deal damage and more about the design of encounters such that healers have breaks large enough to afford them the time to attack without causing wipes while simultaneously having the extraneous mp to attack as well. In end game content (that people aren't overgeared for), healers can't attack because they have to conserve resources and don't have the time to break off and make attacks.

I'm also well aware of "what kind of game" FFXIV is. I'm genuinely confused by why you would suggest that I didn't, considering I just stated I played similar MMORPGs for close to ten years, and if you look at my profile I've clearly been at end game for a significant amount of time given my gear.

Because you spoke as if leveling were a majority of what the game actually is. The game is determined by the leveling process. The leveling process is there to teach you to play, provide you with a story, demonstrate growth in your character as you progress, and generate an investment in that character so that you stick with it. You specifically stated that leveling is "most of the game" which is why I assumed that you meant what you said.

Thirdly, I did not say they run with their tank stances constantly on. I said "Tanks on the other hand have markedly lower damage when in group because... " I was referring to when they are playing as a group. I assumed that the reader would recognize I'm talking about dungeons and other encounters where groups are necessary, and not merely grouping up for daily quests to get them done faster.

At which point the reader would have to wonder if you have any idea what balance is. If tanks could deal as much damage as DPS, what would be the point of bringing DPS, since tanks could deal just as much while requiring a helluva lot less healing and providing more in the way of utility (e.g. if the "main" tank dies, they could pick it up, no problems).

You're complaining about the trinity, acting as if DPS were somehow redundant while completely ignoring the fact that the trinity is designed around the specialist roles built around cooperation of individuals. The trinity wasn't actually something that developers came up with and had it become a standard. The trinity actually developed organically out of early games when players realized that the best way to work together was to specialize at certain tasks: some specialized in being targeted and minimizing incoming damage, some specialized in dealing damage without caring about their defenses because they didn't have to worry about being attacks, and some specialized in healing because they didn't have to worry about being attacked or having to attack.

The faster you down an encounter, the sooner you get the reward, so choosing roles that maximize damage output rewards the players the most. That is by no means the only reason people will play a certain class, but rather it is a reasonable explanation for why the ratio of DPS to tanks to healers is so much more heavy towards the DPS side of things.

Except that you're ignoring the fact that tanks speed up encounter completion by preventing the DPS from dying. You act as if DPS were the entirety of gameplay when, honestly, it's only a single facet. You can't DPS if you're dead and that's what tanks are there for: to prevent the boss from wiping the floor with the DPS.

By your logic, the only role that should ever get played is DPS because it can kill stuff faster which is so wrong it's giving me a headache and honestly makes me wonder how you can claim to know *anything* about MMOs.

The main reasons that people play DPS aren't that they kill faster or that they get rewards faster (which they don't; the best rewards are gained via group content and, all things being equal, DPS progress at the exact same rate as tanks). The main reasons that people play DPS are that it's a low responsibility job and that it's a straightforward job with immediately visible returns (you see big numbers fly up).

Tanking is the least popular because it has an indirect effect upon success (you contribute to success by keeping the enemies from attacking anyone else), has abstract demonstration of effectiveness (your comparative effectiveness as a tank is governed by the reduction in damage taken, which varies massively based upon the situation itself), and has a high degree of responsibility that is made more difficult when you have potent allies (stronger heals and DPS means that you have a harder time keeping aggro, which is the most obvious way for a tank to fail).

Healing is in the middle because it's still got an elevated level of responsibility, but it has easily visible demonstration of effectiveness (size of heals) and contribution to success (everyone stayed alive).

The appeal of DPS is only tangentially related to the increase in reward acquisition that you seem to think drives it. Reward acquisition for everything *except* for the leveling process is exactly the same between all 3 roles because it's group driven content. No role can effectively progress without the others so arguing that DPS is all about progressing faster is simply obtuse. The real reason that DPS is popular is completely unrelated.

[givemeraptors]

The main reasons that people play DPS aren't that they kill faster or that they get rewards faster (which they don't; the best rewards are gained via group content and, all things being equal, DPS progress at the exact same rate as tanks). The main reasons that people play DPS are that it's a low responsibility job and that it's a straightforward job with immediately visible returns (you see big numbers fly up).

Tanking is the least popular because it has an indirect effect upon success (you contribute to success by keeping the enemies from attacking anyone else), has abstract demonstration of effectiveness (your comparative effectiveness as a tank isgoverned by the reduction in damage taken, which varies massively based upon the situation itself), and has a high degree of responsibility that is made more difficult when you have potent allies (stronger heals and DPS means that you have a harder time keeping aggro, which is the most obvious way for a tank to fail).

I think you're underestimating the importance of DD. A tank and healer don't have an infinite resource pool. Most fights in this game can't be done with just a tank and a healer because both would run out of steam long before the boss was dead due to their inability to deal meaningful damage e.g. Haukke Manor HM, Copperbell HM, Coil, CT etc. Heck, even Wanderer's Palace, an easy + fast dungeon, needs DD to kill adds so you can stay ahead of the tonberry stalker.

As for why people dislike playing tanks, I think it's more than just "Tanks have so much responsibility ermagah!!!" I leveled my PLD to 50 and got a relic weapon, doing duty roulette every day to get more practice, and got 1000% more flack than I ever got as a DPS on my worst days. Like hell I would want to continue tanking after that. Only good thing is that people will mindlessly give you commendations.

As a healer I get a decent amount of commendations and love all day long, even if I spent 90% of the time just standing there doing nothing.

[Kitru]

I think you're underestimating the importance of DD.

Nothing you quoted had anything to do with relative importance of the roles, so I'm not even sure where you got it from. I can only guess that you conflated "responsibility" with "importance" which is a pretty naive viewpoint. DPS is *important* because of various enrage mechanisms, but it doesn't have a high degree of responsibility because, when they screw up, things don't fall apart and, most of the time, no one notices. A bad tank or a bad healer is going to be obvious from the start. As such, it's got more responsibility because there are more people that explicitly rely upon them.

As for why people dislike playing tanks, I think it's more than just "Tanks have so much responsibility ermagah!!!" I leveled my PLD to 50 and got a relic weapon, doing duty roulette every day to get more practice, and got 1000% more flack than I ever got as a DPS on my worst days. Like hell I would want to continue tanking after that. Only good thing is that people will mindlessly give you commendations.

You're simply proving my point. A bad DPS passes under the radar because it's hard to notice a bad DPS, especially since parsers aren't really used often. A bad tank is going to get hassled constantly because the other members of the team count on the tank actually doing their job well so that the they can do their job well. DPS and healers can't do their jobs very well when they're getting punched in the face; healers have a harder time doing their jobs when bad tanks stand in bad shit.

It's probably a safe bet that you were hassled as much as you were because you were simply a bad tank. A bad tank is going to get a helluva lot worse punishment than a bad DPS, which groks with your own experiences. The fact that you somehow missed that connection doesn't really bode well for your ability to actually contribute to the discussion since you're the archetype of those players that don't play tanks for the exact reasons I outlined.

[Alkimi]

A bad DPS passes under the radar because it's hard to notice a bad DPS, especially since parsers aren't really used often.

Bad DPS is very noticeable, especially in things like Coil and certain mobs such as the final boss of Haukke Manor HM. What isn't immediately obvious is which DPS isn't pulling their weight (if you have a DRG it's usually that because 99% of them are terrible), which is where parsers come in useful.

[Sapphic]

You're complaining about the trinity, acting as if DPS were somehow redundant while completely ignoring the fact that the trinity is designed around the specialist roles built around cooperation of individuals. The trinity wasn't actually something that developers came up with and had it become a standard. The trinity actually developed organically out of early games when players realized that the best way to work together was to specialize at certain tasks: some specialized in being targeted and minimizing incoming damage, some specialized in dealing damage without caring about their defenses because they didn't have to worry about being attacks, and some specialized in healing because they didn't have to worry about being attacked or having to attack.

DPS as part of the "holy trinity" only came about when designers split CC abilities amongst other classes, The holy trinity was Tank, Healer, Mezzer.

[Kitru]

DPS as part of the "holy trinity" only came about when designers split CC abilities amongst other classes, The holy trinity was Tank, Healer, Mezzer.

Back in "ye olden days" there wasn't CC, and, even when it was added, in very few cases was it exclusive to a single class or role. The idea of "mezzer" actually created an additional role within the confines of the "holy trinity" because there were still those specifically built around dealing damage without any CC capabilities; before CC was added to tanks and healers, "mezzer" was simply a subset of the DPS role (since, even then, CC wasn't a mechanism demanded on a constant basis). "Mezzer" was much like "support" as we currently have it: it was a subrole rather than role in and of itself.

[Caraway]

You're looking for Guild Wars 2.

Guh. I honestly hate what they did with class balance and design. When you take away the downsides of a class and let someone do everything, it removes the incentive to actually work together and fights end up being a zerg-rush of "Who can hit it the hardest, fastest".

I think the 'trinity' is necessary in that it is a structure for people to work around, and it's a structure for designers to balance classes so each has a role, has benefits, and cons. Clearly defined so that they mesh in some way.

DPS as part of the "holy trinity" only came about when designers split CC abilities amongst other classes, The holy trinity was Tank, Healer, Mezzer.

As Sapphic here said, the original "holy trinity" as it applies to MMOs was Tank, Healer, CC. And honestly I'd like to see it go back to that.

I do agree with letting all classes be able to provide a notable DPS contribution, but each class needs to have something their poor at to promote the inclusion of other people. It's a grouping game after all, and class balance should be designed around it.

So the Tanks can do damage, but in a sustained fight they will lose because they have no ability to heal themselves. Healers can damage, and heal themselves, but their healing won't outparse the incoming damage they're taking so they'll eventually fall. CC can damage, and can lock down mobs to control what's coming at a party but without heals or endurance they'll still fall under the weight of attack.

I think this is a system designers should be looking into.

One can also argue that you could possibly do hybrids, but you'd have to sacrifice something to do so, and I think the best thing to sacrifice for those sorts of hybrids would be damage potential.

And to comment on Kitru's post above, the whole "Holy trinity" thing was formally an EQ thing, where CC was the third leg of the triad. It wasn't until later that it was changed to mean DD instead, as with a controller, a healer, and a tank you could complete just about anything put in your way.