As it's Valentione's Day, I ask do we even need in-game marriage; period!

[Trypich]

Because of lore. If SE says that there aren't same sex marriages in Eorzea, then so be it.

FYI, this was not a good enough reason to abate the player base when they pretty much demanded male Miquotes. SE has listened to players concerning Lore in the past.

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

Where are the multiple articles published about Trion's marriage system? Oh, that's right, they're all focusing on the record breaking online marriage-a-thon, with maybe a passing mention that it has no gender restrictions. >_> I highly doubt the media reaction to FFXIV would be any different, and the only reason it might be is because SE has decided to make it an issue. If they would just release it without fanfare save for "Yay, now player characters can get married!" I can almost guarantee you it would go over like water over glass. Hell, maybe even distract everyone by trying to one-up Rift's world record.

This.

It will only be a huge problem if either SE or it's own players make it a problem. Which judging by this thread, plenty of players would make a stink about it because they're homophobic and don't want homosexual couples to have what they have because they personally think they shouldn't, even when it will never affect them whatsoever in the game.

Seriously, no stink will be made about the marriage system being inclusive to the LGBT community unless people want to make a stink about it or SE decides to for whatever reason. Which at this point, SE's safest bet would be to just not mention the marriage system including same-sex marriage (if they release one). If it's not mentioned, no one will even know unless they try it themselves, right? And the only people who would try it themselves would be the people WHO ACTUALLY WANT IT. It wouldn't affect or even enter into the gaze of anyone else in the community besides those who actually wanted the marriage system, whether they're straight or gay.

Trion didn't get any flak for implementing a marriage system that was inclusive to same-sex couples, and iirc Lucent Heart also had a same-sex marriage system and they got no flak for it either, because IT WAS NEVER MENTIONED. Which is how it should be. All SE has to do is just make the marriage system inclusive to same-sex couples, then make an simple announcement that there is a marriage system in game. That's it, no "it's only for hetero couples" or "it allows same-sex marriage!", just "we now have a marriage system in place". No harm done to either side, no side will get their feathers ruffled, no one will make "defamatory articles" questioning SE's decision. It's inclusive for all types of couples and it's also a quiet announcement. Win-win.

[Naunet]

It's worthwhile reminding people that this doesn't just affect LGBT players. Many heterosexual couples in real life play characters in-game who are the same gender.

[Calyanare]

Trion didn't get any flak for implementing a marriage system that was inclusive to same-sex couples, and iirc Lucent Heart also had a same-sex marriage system and they got no flak for it either, because IT WAS NEVER MENTIONED. {snip} No harm done to either side, no side will get their feathers ruffled, no one will make "defamatory articles" questioning SE's decision. It's inclusive for all types of couples and it's also a quiet announcement. Win-win.

I'm not entirely sure you can compare these situations. Rift went F2P ages ago, and I've never even heard of Lucent Heart. Right now, FFXIV is one of the most popular new P2P games. For the "include it but just don't talk about it" strategy to work, you have to be out of the media spotlight.

Again, I've never heard of Lucent Heart so I don't know anything about it, but I played Rift for about a year following its launch (and quit before it went F2P), and this thread was the first I heard of marriage in that game so I assume it's a relatively recent addition. The articles about marriage in Rift I assume went something like "Hey, remember that Rift game we all played for a while 2 or 3 years ago and is now F2P? They added marriage!" FFXIV is still a new game being actively reported on by the media, though, which is why adding marriage would attract lots of attention no matter how the company chose to announce it, particularly because the controversy about it here in the forums is so well known.

So my opinion is that if we want this to happen, we should let it die. Quit talking about it and stirring up controversy so that they can quietly add it, because that's the only way it will be able to be inclusive.

[Tupsi]

FYI, this was not a good enough reason to abate the player base when they pretty much demanded male Miquotes. SE has listened to players concerning Lore in the past.

The difference is:

1 is a playable counterpart to a race, people only demanded it for personal reasons (omg I want a pretty cat boy!) So Yshnal is correct, if lore says otherwise, that's how the design is. Look at what they sacrificed to give us male cats and female roes, they didn't simply decide to get rid of belt models and scale character models down to almost PSX style builds.

It's worthwhile reminding people that this doesn't just affect LGBT players. Many heterosexual couples in real life play characters in-game who are the same gender.

Was never a problem in FFXI, but then again, XI comes from an era where people didn't complain about their decisions (I'm a female playing a male and my husband is also a male type of decision.) So in reality, it really isn't and wouldn't be a problem it just would happen to disallow people who made the conscious decision to play the opposite gender - Not SE's fault in any shape or form unless you can give full detailed reasoning as to how SE influenced their decision of: "I think I'll play a male character!"

Fyi they also stated Fantasia's will be available for purchase, so you can easily change your race if you want to get married, if not..there's nothing SE can do about it unless one wants to admit it's just to appease the LGBT playerbase.

and iirc Lucent Heart also had a same-sex marriage system and they got no flak for it either

Alright, let's break down the facts:

1. Lucent heart was an OBSCURE Korean MMORPG that barely had any support.
2. When the service was shutdown officially ALMOST NO HOSTING COMPANY WANTED TO HOST IT
3. It took QUITE AWHILE for them to even find a new host.
4. Did I mention it was an obscure Korean MMORPG almost no one's heard of or even cared about, hence the service shutdown?
5. 9/10 it was 2 dudes playing as female characters getting married for the buffs.

They didn't get flak for it just like Fabulous Burgers didn't get flak for their poor quality Hash Brown...

What's Fabulous Burgers you say? Exactly. I enjoyed LH, but it was such an obscure MMO that if it got flak then America and Europe is definitely being over sensitive while not uncommon (lolFoxNews), that MMO barely made any ripple in terms of an MMO itself (it was pretty bland) or because of the couple focused nature (which was cute but it was clearly targeting an extreme niche.)

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

I'm not entirely sure you can compare these situations. Rift went F2P ages ago, and I've never even heard of Lucent Heart. Right now, FFXIV is one of the most popular new P2P games. For the "include it but just don't talk about it" strategy to work, you have to be out of the media spotlight.

Once again, them being in the spotlight or no doesn't mean they couldn't make a quiet "hey we have a marriage system now, yay" announcement. Being in the spotlight doesn't mean anything, they DO NOT have to go into super big details about how inclusive or exclusive it is. At most, they'd just tell HOW one gets married, without specifically mentioning gender pronouns into it. Stuff like "Well, two players who want to get married will go to [insert area here], exchange [insert key item here], and will now be married (and/or if they decide to implement some kind of bonus from marriage, they will now receive [insert bonus here] whenever they party together)."

It's very simple. They're still saying plenty about how the marriage system would work and how one would go about doing so, without actually mentioning specific gender pronouns like "two males, a male and female, two females". It's just "two players." Gender-neutral, allows easy explanation of the marriage system without potentially causing some kind of pathetic uproar by homophobes who think a same-sex inclusive marriage system will ever affect them in the first place.

This is not as big of an issue as everyone is trying to make of it. SE, even if they're in the spotlight right now, have plenty of options when it comes to explaining a marriage system without mentioning that it includes same-sex marriage options, or even mentioning what genders can even get married at all. SE has options to implement one without mentioning specifics about what genders are able to get married. It's players who are so against a marriage system they likely won't even use themselves that are the problem, not SE being in the spotlight of online gaming right now.

[Trypich]

1 is a playable counterpart to a race, people only demanded it for personal reasons (omg I want a pretty cat boy!) So Yshnal is correct, if lore says otherwise, that's how the design is. Look at what they sacrificed to give us male cats and female roes, they didn't simply decide to get rid of belt models and scale character models down to almost PSX style builds.

That's a poor counter argument and you explained why yourself: "people only demanded it for personal reasons." It was not in SE's original intention for the game, so far as we are able to tell. The change was still made. This is a game not unfamiliar with Lore revisions. Where were Soul Crystals a couple years, for example? They weren't put in until players said they wanted the more traditional roster of jobs present. Bam. It was done.

Anyway, the entirety of your argument—and Yshnal's argument—is based around the existing world of Hydalaen as we know it which is made by real people. If those real people decide to include heterosexual marriage but exclude same-sex marriage it begs the question: why not one without the other? This game is not created in a vacuum. It already draws from real life. Hydalaen has a lot of things that the real world has: transportation, money, government, war. So you're telling me it's going to include heterosexual marriage but not same-sex marriage because, lol, those Eorzeans are just built differently? Or something? Makes no sense.

[Naunet]

Again, I've never heard of Lucent Heart so I don't know anything about it, but I played Rift for about a year following its launch (and quit before it went F2P), and this thread was the first I heard of marriage in that game so I assume it's a relatively recent addition. The articles about marriage in Rift I assume went something like "Hey, remember that Rift game we all played for a while 2 or 3 years ago and is now F2P? They added marriage!"

Actually, Rift's marriage system was added well before it went F2P (and it hasn't actually been F2P for that long, fyi), so this entire paragraph of yours is inaccurate, and the conclusions you draw from it are invalid.

So my opinion is that if we want this to happen, we should let it die.

They've voiced their hesitance. That alone is reason enough to not let it die, because if we do, they may implement it with restrictions.

Was never a problem in FFXI, but then again, XI comes from an era where people didn't complain about their decisions (I'm a female playing a male and my husband is also a male type of decision.) So in reality, it really isn't and wouldn't be a problem it just would happen to disallow people who made the conscious decision to play the opposite gender - Not SE's fault in any shape or form unless you can give full detailed reasoning as to how SE influenced their decision of: "I think I'll play a male character!"

Ah, the "kids these days" argument. That doesn't actually work as a legitimate stance, you know. What is wrong now was wrong then. I'm sorry you folk didn't have it in you to speak up for something you wanted.

[Tupsi]

That's a poor counter argument

They stated it themselves during Beta.

If those real people decide to include heterosexual marriage but exclude same-sex marriage it begs the question: why not one without the other?

Look at the Valentine's event, especially considering this is a Japanese developed game - It's heavily traditional which is Woman/Man or Man/Woman (Valentines/White Day), so as you said, made by real people which happen to be Japanese developers and tend to pull from their own regional influences and culture. The thing is, the only counter arguments tend to be: That's wrong to exclude! Yet they can never explain why, even in all of Valentine's tradition in the west, is it wrong for it to be Heterosexual only, since that's all I'm getting from people arguing against the 'traditional style.'

[Calyanare]

Actually, Rift's marriage system was added well before it went F2P (and it hasn't actually been F2P for that long, fyi), so this entire paragraph of yours is inaccurate, and the conclusions you draw from it are invalid.

Just because I'm not sure when a game I quit playing more than 2 years ago went F2P doesn't make it invalid. At the time I left, Rift was hemorrhaging subscribers left and right, and had just had a big server merge that was widely publicized as being its death. After that none of the gaming sites I read even mentioned Rift at all until the marriage world record attempt thing happened, so my conclusion isn't invalidated by the fact that Rift wasn't F2P yet by the time it happened. It was considered to be a dying game by most, so it could only benefit from any publicity other than a "we're shutting down the servers" message. I'm sorry I didn't feel it was necessary to do research for this post, but the facts being a little off doesn't invalidate the point I was trying to make.

Once again, them being in the spotlight or no doesn't mean they couldn't make a quiet "hey we have a marriage system now, yay" announcement. Being in the spotlight doesn't mean anything, they DO NOT have to go into super big details about how inclusive or exclusive it is.

But don't you see that because of all of the well-known controversy about it since it was originally mentioned, that "But is it inclusive?" will be the first question anybody asks? It's not like people will just go "Oh, cool!" and be pleasantly surprised if they happen to try it and it works. Even if SE doesn't announce it themselves, the first people to find out it does work (within about 5 minutes after it's live) will slather the information all over the place ASAP, causing people who don't like it to try to arrange boycotts and possibly blocking their launch in some countries (if it is gender-blind).

This is why I think we won't get this feature for a couple of years yet, unless people shut up about it. It's too controversial for them to take a gamble on.