I'm LGBT and I don't think the vanlentines quest is offensive.

[Zaiekk]

I'm gay and I wasn't offended in the least. People are so easily offended these days, and it's actually rather pathetic. It's such a tiny and insignificant thing really. Just stupid people being stupid it seems.

[Phe]

snip

my comparisons were not ideal and sometimes it's hard for me to get a point across as a non-native speaker.
i kinda overreacted and i somehow regret it.

what really bothers me the most is that everytime this LGBT discussion comes up, there is so much bad blood in these forums.
so i'd rather just not have such threads in the general discussions and i think it makes kind of sense, that those controversial politically motivated topics are prohibited (in theory) by the ToS.

you know... LGBT people achieved very much in the US what they can be proud of, and in germany - where i live - as well.
i just think it's not the business of NA or EU homosexual people to advance the movement in Japan.

That's the challenge of LBGT people in Japan.

And to your last sentence:
I can't even say that i made significantly bad experiences with LGBT people IRL.
But in these forums... obtrusively posting their complaints on a regular basis... it kinda annoys me.

[CatholicFan]

[Very civil post.]

First of all, bravo on having a coherent and civilized response to something on the internet, especially in regards to hot-button topic such as this. As you've been one of the more rational posters to appear in this thread, I'd like to pose some questions to you in regards to some of the statements you made.

The reason representation of the LGBT community is important in any game where themes related to romance or sexuality is addressed would be exclusively for equality's sake. If a man can have relations with a woman, then a man should be able to have relations with a man and a woman should be able to have relations with a woman. Doesn't matter if the relations are sexual in nature, if they're innocently romantic in nature, etc.

This is a stance I do not honestly understand. Why are there "should"'s in these statements? Given the fictional nature of this game, why "should" there be representations like this in the game? I've seen many people argue that because a game developer can do it, they should, but that's not really addressing the question of why they should. Square-Enix has certainly taken the effort to include some references to SGR, but why should the lore have be fully representative of its real-life counterparts?

One of the draws of an MMORPG is that one gets to feel like they themselves are the hero of this epic tale, and that our characters have some sort of ephemeral tie to our real-life selves. As such, I understand the desire to have options to maximizing that potential; however, as you've noted yourself, there are limits to these options. I think the options should only be limited based on creative vision. I think if SE wants to include options for SGR because it makes sense to them from a creative standpoint, then they should do that, and make it clear in the game's lore why this is an acceptable part of the game world's environment. SE should also be able to do the opposite: have a game world where that just isn't part of the lore, or if it is, to what extent it's a factor. Customers can then make their choice to play the game based in part on their interest in that particular aspect of the game. What I don't like is SE trying to cater to the whims of a global audience with wildly varying opinions on the subject.

Would you agree that SE's attempts to "sit on the fence" are probably the most hurtful because it inflames their audience into arguments over SE's ambiguity?

I just think you need to find and talk to some folks in the LGBT community who aren't virulently extremist, because it sounds to me like those are the ONLY LGBT individuals you have ever met, and I apologize for that, because I believe that's the culture rearing its ugly head and it should not be representative of everyone in the LGBT community.

I'd like to just repost this for the sake of more people seeing it. This is so true, and I do think it's sad that a lot of people's contact with the LGBT community seems to be based solely on what they encounter on the internet. Every group, not just LGBT, has its zealots. In the real-life physical world, people tend to be much more sensible about discussing topics such as these. It's a pity it happens so rarely because I think we'd progress a lot further a lot faster if our discussions on topics like this happened off the internet where we had to face the people we disagreed with.

[SummonerSenah]

I just think it is funny that in games you can be any number of things right out of science fiction and fantasy, but most of the time you have to be straight. So I can be a woman with a tail and furry ears that can shoot fire from a magic wand at a dragon the size of a barn, but not while I'm gay because apparently that's too much of a stretch.

[HakuroDK]

First of all, bravo on having a coherent and civilized response to something on the internet, especially in regards to hot-button topic such as this. As you've been one of the more rational posters to appear in this thread, I'd like to pose some questions to you in regards to some of the statements you made.

If there is one thing I have learned and take to heart, it's that everyone thinks they are right and just in their beliefs, even if someone else thinks they are wrong and injust. I am a Unitarian Universalist and I am proud to adopt that ideology that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and should always learn more about their environments and the people in them. I happily welcome questions!

This is a stance I do not honestly understand. Why are there "should"'s in these statements? Given the fictional nature of this game, why "should" there be representations like this in the game? I've seen many people argue that because a game developer can do it, they should, but that's not really addressing the question of why they should. Square-Enix has certainly taken the effort to include some references to SGR, but why should the lore have be fully representative of its real-life counterparts?

The reasoning for my use of the word "should" is because, while they are not mandated to do so and absolutely have creative license to do whatever they want, the reason "should" is there is because LGBT individuals play this game. A healthy amount, actually.

As this game requires the creation of one's own character to interact with the world, a "persona", if you will, then would it not be fair to ask that the sexual orientation of an individual playing a character--likely based upon themselves and their own beliefs--be allowed to react to certain situations in the same way as those without those same beliefs?

I believe that every player should be able to have the same kind of experience based upon their preferences. If two people are allowed an in-game marriage, then that should extend to any two people, not two people restricted by preset variables. If there is no in-game marriage recognized by the game, this becomes a non-issue. It's about equality more than anything else.

The developers "should" make an attempt to ensure that everyone, regardless of gender, gender identity, race, nationality, and sexual orientation, has the same kind of experiences based upon their specific needs. Women should be treated the same as men, transgender should be treated the same as cisgender, Black, Asian, Latino, and others should be treated the same as Caucasian, and gay should be treated the same as straight. It is either more or less work to accomodate that, depending on the complexity of the systems interfering with that equality, but it is something that should be addressed, I feel.

One of the draws of an MMORPG is that one gets to feel like they themselves are the hero of this epic tale, and that our characters have some sort of ephemeral tie to our real-life selves. As such, I understand the desire to have options to maximizing that potential; however, as you've noted yourself, there are limits to these options. I think the options should only be limited based on creative vision. I think if SE wants to include options for SGR because it makes sense to them from a creative standpoint, then they should do that, and make it clear in the game's lore why this is an acceptable part of the game world's environment. SE should also be able to do the opposite: have a game world where that just isn't part of the lore, or if it is, to what extent it's a factor. Customers can then make their choice to play the game based in part on their interest in that particular aspect of the game. What I don't like is SE trying to cater to the whims of a global audience with wildly varying opinions on the subject.

Would you agree that SE's attempts to "sit on the fence" are probably the most hurtful because it inflames their audience into arguments over SE's ambiguity?

I don't think lore really needs to have a part in certain kinds of inequality. Gender inequality, Skin Color Inequality, Sexual Orientation Inequality, those don't ever really need to get addressed in the lore at all to be implemented. Case and point, the Fable series and The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. You could marry literally anyone you wanted regardless of gender or in-game race, and not once did the lore ever mention that such things were outlandish and/or unacceptable. It may be uncommon, certainly, but not abhored.

As for SE's "Sit on the Fence" strategy, if I were the one making that decision in an executive seat, I would think it's a smart move to be making from a business standpoint. History has proven that, if you pick one side or the other, then you could lose a large chunk of your customer base. I think, once FFXIV cements itself properly in the MMO market or some miraculous wave of equality somehow sweeps the globe (like if, say... Putin's Russia suddenly and literally turns into Hitler's Germany, which I seriously doubt would ever actually happen in this modern era), then I think at that time, it would start to make that choice of who to side with.

But until then, I think they're smart to stay on the fence because the fence is safe. There is no risk involved, which could cost them certain kinds of customers on one side or the other as well as all of the free press it could give them from making that choice, but it is a very safe position for them to be in and one that I would choose myself were I in their shoes.

I'd like to just repost this for the sake of more people seeing it. This is so true, and I do think it's sad that a lot of people's contact with the LGBT community seems to be based solely on what they encounter on the internet. Every group, not just LGBT, has its zealots. In the real-life physical world, people tend to be much more sensible about discussing topics such as these. It's a pity it happens so rarely because I think we'd progress a lot further a lot faster if our discussions on topics like this happened off the internet where we had to face the people we disagreed with.

It does GREATLY sadden me that there are zealots in the LGBT community who push way way too hard for our rights, but I do understand why they are so fervent in their struggles, and it's because there are many zealots on the other side. It's a constant war of words and emotions that really needs to be quelled and looked at critically from both sides.

The LGBT community needs equality, but it doesn't need any more than that. Once we get that equality, then we don't have to fight anymore.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I swear it's on-topic. I was playing through BioShock Infinite at one point. (Spoiler Warning now for anyone who has not beaten the core game) and, as Booker, when you first walk through the streets of Columbia, you see the elite caucasian men and women walking through the streets, proud of their purity as they trod on what they call the "Vox Populi", a group of "lessers" made up of minorities such as those who are Black, Irish, Asian, and many other groups. Throughout the story, you find a way to travel into different realities, different parallel worlds. You step into one world where the Vox Populi successfully carry a revolt against Columbia. And even though the Vox Populi were winning this war, they behaved in such a vile, cruel way towards those who oppressed them, that they not once thought about the innocents they were hurting. The leader of the Vox Populi, even though she was winning the war, started shooting and killing innocent people who unknowingly cooperated with the Columbian government. She was even about to kill a child who did absolutely nothing wrong because he wasn't Vox Populi and neither were his parents who were dead.

The moral of that story is that hatred begets hatred, and everyone needs to learn tolerance, or else the oppressed will only become the oppressors if they succeed. That's why I have so much respect for MLK and so little respect for Malcolm X. MLK wished to express tolerance and the idea that everyone could live in unity. Malcolm X just wanted to rise up and overthrow the current power.

I don't want the LGBT community led by a man like Malcolm X, someone who, if they succeeded, would start vilifying heterosexuality in the same way homosexuality is vilified now. I want equality, I want understanding, and I want tolerance. That's all I want.

[Parodine]

Eloquence.

Butnoreally, this is fantastic and I think best represents my disappointment with the event. I don't want to tear down the foundations of the game and I'm not going to quit, I just want them to consider using more gender-neutral ways of including us. I don't want a pride parade in Eorzea, there are plenty of subtle ways to do it, and hopefully they will in future events. Hopefully.

[frostmagemari]

<Big post>

I was going to chime in my thoughts onto all of this, but i don't think i have to anymore. You were able to sum up everything pretty well in your various posts, and i just wanted to say thanks.

[HakuroDK]

snip

Everyone on the internet tries to be insanely vocal, I don't think it's restricted to one group or another, really.

As for this thread, I think the original poster's intent was to try to douse the flames that may have been sparked by some of the minor heteronormative tones. And I think that's fine! I welcome that kind of behavior when it isn't a big deal, and it really isn't! But there are some folks who do get offended at every minor sleight and that's where the problem comes in.

A fair thing to get offended over would be if FFXIV had, say... a marriage system with gameplay benefits, but only a male and female could get married (there are many Korean MMOs that have this kind of feature), I would think outrage over that kind of a feature would be justified. However, between this and the "puffpuff" incident, it's absolutely minor stuff that really shouldn't be fussed over all that much.

I think SE's perched safely on the fence between equality and tradition, and I think that's okay because they're still trying to gain a playerbase, and in this day and age, as much as I absolutely hate to admit it, we're not quite there with the equality on a global scale yet.

As for the LGBT movement in Japan, if other countries put pressure on the Japanese Government, then the LGBT movement in Japan could be more of a diplomatic issue than something handled in the country itself (very much like what's going on in Russia right now), and the Japanese Government might be swayed to one side or the other. Though honestly, even by itself, from what I have heard, Japan is making slow, yet slowly accelerating process with that sort of mentality. I don't think it's in any danger of slipping backwards anytime soon.

[MStowastiqVahlshdeh]

@AlternateTrigger
Me too, and not offended. I think we need to be open minded if we expect them to release open minded content.

[Zaels]

That's exactly what I was saying regarding Japan's stance on it. They aren't nearly as accepting as the USA is, and there's too much risk involved in SE offending their fellow Japanese stakeholders. I actually think SE made the right choice by not directly allowing it, but leaving in an easy loophole around it that anyone can do with very little effort.

The bigger issue is pressing on the LGBT movement in Japan. Perhaps once they start to accept them, rather than shun/dishonor them, we'll see their games and entertainment show the same results.