My three stages to Paladin tanking

[Revya]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...mpendium-2.0.1

^--For more info.

On leveling, make sure you upgrade your weapon when ever possible. 90% of your enmity potential is directly from your WD stat, which is counter to most MMOs out there from a tanking perspective.

Watch out for Brayflox, there's a huge jump in mob damage at that point and you're going to get smashed in there going in at the starting level if your equipment isn't above average. This will continue through Temple of Qarn and even out around Cutter's Cry once you pick up Shield Oath and get a higher amount of hp per Vit.

Sure brayflox is a little harder then most dungeons around that lvl, but its nothing different either. And this one is not about leveling though... or gear stuff just general tanking. and ofcourse Enmity will increase with weapon damage as they all but Flash takes there damage from your weapon.
That is also part of my reason for not using it as much as other do... and rather stick with savage blade for basic tanking at lower levels.

[CianaIezuborn]

Sure brayflox is a little harder then most dungeons around that lvl, but its nothing different either. And this one is not about leveling though... or gear stuff just general tanking. and ofcourse Enmity will increase with weapon damage as they all but Flash takes there damage from your weapon.
That is also part of my reason for not using it as much as other do... and rather stick with savage blade for basic tanking at lower levels.

These aren't obvious things, they are very specific to this game especially the Enmity potential being primarily based off weapon quality. In most other games, high enmity skills give an additional amount of enmity that scales off level and/or tanking stats, so weapon upgrades don't do much to enmity produced. In this game, they are simply a multiplier to your weapon damage making weapon upgrades for enmity exponentially more important in this game than in say WoW or Rift.

I've had multiple people leveling tanks ask me what they were doing wrong in Brayflox because they felt like they were getting melted by mobs. The answer is you're level 32 and there is a huge jump in damage from earlier dungeons to Brayflox. Only thing you can do is gear out in full HQ/dungeon gear and/or level to 34. I've heard similar complaints from healers saying there tank was melting, my response being "Brayflox?".

Note that flash is fairly weak before 40, but once you pick up Shield Oath it becomes ridiculously strong due to the way it interacts with the Shield Oath multiplier. 90% certain that flashes strength is directly related to WD also, thought I tested this months ago but now I'm not sure or if I just read someone else's work.

I'm assuming since you're breaking tanking strategies down for new folks based off level ranges that it would be nice to include this info, as it's not completely obvious your first play through.

[Revya]

These aren't obvious things, they are very specific to this game especially the Enmity potential being primarily based off weapon quality. In most other games, high enmity skills give an additional amount of enmity that scales off level and/or tanking stats, so weapon upgrades don't do much to enmity produced. In this game, they are simply a multiplier to your weapon damage making weapon upgrades for enmity exponentially more important in this game than in say WoW or Rift.
I've had multiple people leveling tanks ask me what they were doing wrong in Brayflox because they felt like they were getting melted by mobs. The answer is you're level 32 and there is a huge jump in damage from earlier dungeons to Brayflox. Only thing you can do is gear out in full HQ/dungeon gear and/or level to 34. I've heard similar complaints from healers saying there tank was melting, my response being "Brayflox?".

Note that flash is fairly weak before 40, but once you pick up Shield Oath it becomes ridiculously strong due to the way it interacts with the Shield Oath multiplier. 90% certain that flashes strength is directly related to WD also, thought I tested this months ago but now I'm not sure or if I just read someone else's work.

I'm assuming since you're breaking tanking strategies down for new folks based off level ranges that it would be nice to include this info, as it's not completely obvious your first play through.

Right.. iv never been much in to the number game in the details like the other guide you linked was about. And I've never had issues with brayflox either be it Tanking, Damage or healing. The number right now to decimals is not needed ever, as they are focused only on this specific class and not taking the rest of the classes into account.. as you raise in stats every level so does every other class so they are always equal to a degree.

Yea this is more focused on new people to get into tanking with a enough info about their skills and usage area. Flash does get a boost with Shield Oath yes, but at the same every class gets more damage and healing enmity so its back to square once again... so its still a little useless for other then initial enmity gain as at all levels.

as for the other mmo's they have little place here other then the general idea. how they are different are off little concern really. And as a General rule of thumb.. as a tank you should have the best gear available for the best result this goes for other mmo's as much as it does here.

Though that said with proper skill usage in Brayflox and you wont have a problem even with a little under geared items. This does also go for the damage dealer and healer as they also need to know their skills well enough.

[Lupus_Lux]

I've mained as PLD for awhile now and I have never used cover. You got me thinking about it's potential use when I'm the off tank. Still can't think of a fight to use it on that doesn't have a MT debuff stack mechanic (Ultima, Titan Ex) but I will keep it in mind for future experimentation. Thanks for taking the time to help make better tanks!

[Hitokirinomad]

This may come across as rude and/or caustic. Not my actual intent, I just don't want people trying to follow all of this advice just because your post is long. Ciana linked a very comprehensive guide that uses math and testing. Go use that.

Yea this is more focused on new people to get into tanking with a enough info about their skills and usage area. Flash does get a boost with Shield Oath yes, but at the same every class gets more damage and healing enmity so its back to square once again... so its still a little useless for other then initial enmity gain as at all levels.

This one bit of misinformation here made me go back and really read what you put down. Some of it is good, a lot of it is suboptimal. Flash with shield oath is more than just 'initial threat grab'. At low levels, PLD who continually lose aggro in my experience have flashed less than 3 times per multi mob pull. At higher levels...what exactly do you think those tanks in WP speed runs are using to hold aggro on 12 mobs? Or what if (while leveling), you run across a THM or CNJ who sleeps the other mobs?

For your main post, you only list 3 cross class skills, one of which you can't use in combat, and don't need outside of combat. You forgot Bloodbath and Protect, or even cure if you are unwilling/able to take your CNJ to 34 for SS (somewhat likely for a truly new to the game tank).

Now many might wonder and argue why i use only savage blade and not the full combo on the first target...
First its a slow process to use the whole combo.
Second its does NOT give more enmity. The additional effect is only 200 potency from 100. Now you do get more enmity with more damage. But as you use fast blade first its slower then just using Savage Blade alone. As your job is NOT to do the most damage but hold every mob with Enmity and not let them loose on your healers as they keep you alive

This is confusing, and also incorrect. You will generate more enmity in 2 swings with Fast > Savage than you would with Savage > Fast, and it's the *same amount of time spent due to the GCD*. Also, post-Halone, you generate an insane amount more emnity doing Fast > Savage > Halone than Savage > Fast > Savage, and you will most likely immediately lose threat if you have DPS expecting a quicker ramp up.

As for best in slot gear and the likes i can really tell because its up each and everyone to decide that. Item Level means much yes but individual skill and knowledge is not count in that so be sure not to judge to quickly.

The JOB story armor coupled with Dark-light rings and bracelets is more then enough for most content. Fancy armor does not make you better just better equipped.

Also, no. Not even the slightest. Unless by "most content" you mean nothing past AK, WP, and Ifrit HM. You suggest that tanks need to have the best gear available for the content, then let them know it's okay to stay in AF armor. It's really not. It won't make you utilize your skills better, but it does help with the whole 'staying alive and keeping threat' portion of the tanking. You're not a bad tank just because you are in AF, just go ahead and get better as quickly as possible.

[Revya]

This may come across as rude and/or caustic. Not my actual intent, I just don't want people trying to follow all of this advice just because your post is long. Ciana linked a very comprehensive guide that uses math and testing. Go use that.

No i don't mind at all. thank you come telling me. And yea its is comprehensive and well tested of course. I've read it before and I've read it again now. But it is not that friendlies and i would't recommend it for anyone that is not into the number detail however.

This one bit of misinformation here made me go back and really read what you put down. Some of it is good, a lot of it is suboptimal. Flash with shield oath is more than just 'initial threat grab'. At low levels, PLD who continually lose aggro in my experience have flashed less than 3 times per multi mob pull. At higher levels...what exactly do you think those tanks in WP speed runs are using to hold aggro on 12 mobs? Or what if (while leveling), you run across a THM or CNJ who sleeps the other mobs?

If you really went back to read it again you must have skipped the 1 third of it on the way. As you do not have shield Oath on lower levels. I also said that if you do have trouble with holding the aggro then don't be afraid to use flash more and tell your team to hold off on the damage for a bit. I dont use more then 1 or maybe 2 Flash at lower levels as its not needed if you rotate targets around. At higher levels you have almost less us for it. And WP speed runs... really?? if you want to base the whole use of Flash by only using a unique way to use flash in WP speed runs only then you missed the point really... and just to have said it. i have not tanked WP Speed run.. only the normal way, and i don't not like the place at all. If i want them to sleep a target i will marking accordingly by using the chain mark.

For your main post, you only list 3 cross class skills, one of which you can't use in combat, and don't need outside of combat. You forgot Bloodbath and Protect, or even cure if you are unwilling/able to take your CNJ to 34 for SS (somewhat likely for a truly new to the game tank).

Yea i listed only three as you wont need anything more really. As for protect.. white mage got better, scholar will have it also. Cure.. not needed as its useless really.. if we got it to scale of strength or vitality it could be better. It heals around 200 which is not much. While soloing i did have it yes, but almost never used it. And if you do need the 200 hp to survive you are better off using one of your defense skills instead.
And for Bloodbath.. i actually had it in the post but deleted it because i don't really have it and i don't see a use for it.. we are not a HP tank like warrior is and we do little damage to begin with. For the the Stoneskin part i didnt say it was mandatory.. i actually said is was near useless.. but i have it there because i actual use it for low lvl dungeons. As i leveled up my conjurer as my first class.

This is confusing, and also incorrect. You will generate more enmity in 2 swings with Fast > Savage than you would with Savage > Fast, and it's the *same amount of time spent due to the GCD*. Also, post-Halone, you generate an insane amount more emnity doing Fast > Savage > Halone than Savage > Fast > Savage, and you will most likely immediately lose threat if you have DPS expecting a quicker ramp up.

No your wrong... Fast Blade do not have a enmity additional BUT it does deal damage as this gives you some enmity. Savage blade give you enmity outside of a combo and more inside. But if your try it you gain more enmity early on by hitting savage blade twice instead of the full combo. When you have established enmity lead you should however continue the fast blade combo for damage and because you have the enmity lead. You do however lose enmity eventually for some bosses that are focused if the dps is doing there job before you gain Rage of Halone.
As for "Post-halone" its post halone so you don't have access to it yet and therefor you cannot use it either. When you do have it will gain enormous amount of enmity with the full combo as the last hit gives you the most.

Also, no. Not even the slightest. Unless by "most content" you mean nothing past AK, WP, and Ifrit HM. You suggest that tanks need to have the best gear available for the content, then let them know it's okay to stay in AF armor. It's really not. It won't make you utilize your skills better, but it does help with the whole 'staying alive and keeping threat' portion of the tanking. You're not a bad tank just because you are in AF, just go ahead and get better as quickly as possible.

Most content would be Pre Ifrit HM yea. as you need the better gear really. But you can enter Crystal Tower with a ilvl of 50 and most other places also. BUT some of them have a dps check point.. which is more for the Damage dealers to handle.
And again this isn't a endgame grind guide either but the general idea around tanking my tanking at least..

[Menae]

No your wrong... Fast Blade do not have a enmity additional BUT it does deal damage as this gives you some enmity. Savage blade give you enmity outside of a combo and more inside. But if your try it you gain more enmity early on by hitting savage blade twice instead of the full combo. When you have established enmity lead you should however continue the fast blade combo for damage and because you have the enmity lead. You do however lose enmity eventually for some bosses that are focused if the dps is doing there job before you gain Rage of Halone.
As for "Post-halone" its post halone so you don't have access to it yet and therefor you cannot use it either. When you do have it will gain enormous amount of enmity with the full combo as the last hit gives you the most.

Fast Blade does 150 potency.
Savage Blade does 100 potency. Combo'd it does 200 potency. It has a bonus built into the skill that causes it to do triple the enmity it would based on damage. It is NOT a case where it gives a flat enmity bonus; it scales based on damage caused. This has been tested to be the case by people with way more intelligence and free time than I. I presume this is so tanks are encouraged to use combos rather than just saying screw it and getting by with Halone spam.

Assume that each potency translates into x enmity. Then Fast Blade > Savage Blade does (150x + 200(3x)) = 750x enmity. Double Savage just does 100(3x)+100(3x) = 600x enmity. Fast+Savage is better for both damage (350 potency vs. 250) and enmity (750 vs. 450).

[Revya]

Fast Blade does 150 potency.
Savage Blade does 100 potency. Combo'd it does 200 potency. It has a bonus built into the skill that causes it to do triple the enmity it would based on damage. It is NOT a case where it gives a flat enmity bonus; it scales based on damage caused. This has been tested to be the case by people with way more intelligence and free time than I. I presume this is so tanks are encouraged to use combos rather than just saying screw it and getting by with Halone spam.

Assume that each potency translates into x enmity. Then Fast Blade > Savage Blade does (150x + 200(3x)) = 750x enmity. Double Savage just does 100(3x)+100(3x) = 600x enmity. Fast+Savage is better for both damage (350 potency vs. 250) and enmity (750 vs. 450).

Thank you for the respond. As for combos I've never denied that it deals more damage and Enmity and it does do just that.
What i want to point out however is that a Savage blade gives more enmity for initial first hit and makes it easier to get the full combo off without the mob running to the healer who just crit healed you or used Medica.
There is also the damage dealers that jump the gun sometimes and going straight to the combo takes over all longer to actually preform in the heat of things as you would otherwise.

So after the initial hit you should stay on the combo's.

[Hitokirinomad]

If you really went back to read it again you must have skipped the 1 third of it on the way. As you do not have shield Oath on lower levels. I also said that if you do have trouble with holding the aggro then don't be afraid to use flash more and tell your team to hold off on the damage for a bit. I dont use more then 1 or maybe 2 Flash at lower levels as its not needed if you rotate targets around. At higher levels you have almost less us for it. And WP speed runs... really?? if you want to base the whole use of Flash by only using a unique way to use flash in WP speed runs only then you missed the point really... and just to have said it. i have not tanked WP Speed run.. only the normal way, and i don't not like the place at all. If i want them to sleep a target i will marking accordingly by using the chain mark.

The point was that flash ALONE can generate a significant amount of AOE threat faster and with less effort than splitting your Halone combo. At lower levels flash is even more crucial because you don't have significant threat tools like your Shield Oath or Halone, or maybe even Provoke.

Yea i listed only three as you wont need anything more really. As for protect.. white mage got better, scholar will have it also. Cure.. not needed as its useless really.. if we got it to scale of strength or vitality it could be better. It heals around 200 which is not much. While soloing i did have it yes, but almost never used it. And if you do need the 200 hp to survive you are better off using one of your defense skills instead.
And for Bloodbath.. i actually had it in the post but deleted it because i don't really have it and i don't see a use for it.. we are not a HP tank like warrior is and we do little damage to begin with. For the the Stoneskin part i didnt say it was mandatory.. i actually said is was near useless.. but i have it there because i actual use it for low lvl dungeons. As i leveled up my conjurer as my first class.

Not really gonna argue with you here, nothing (including Foresight btw) that PLD gets from MRD is super useful. But this was a guide for newbie tanks I thought. Bloodbath is lvl 8, and is actually pretty helpful at lower levels and while soloing. While leveling, bloodbath and protect are a couple of the most useful skills for all melee. It's only problem is poor scaling.

No your wrong... Fast Blade do not have a enmity additional BUT it does deal damage as this gives you some enmity. Savage blade give you enmity outside of a combo and more inside. But if your try it you gain more enmity early on by hitting savage blade twice instead of the full combo. When you have established enmity lead you should however continue the fast blade combo for damage and because you have the enmity lead. You do however lose enmity eventually for some bosses that are focused if the dps is doing there job before you gain Rage of Halone.
As for "Post-halone" its post halone so you don't have access to it yet and therefor you cannot use it either. When you do have it will gain enormous amount of enmity with the full combo as the last hit gives you the most.

I was wrapping all of your rotations into this one section to reduce the wall of text. Pre-Halone(before lvl 26), Shield Lob > Fast > Savage gives you more enmity than Shield Lob >Savage > Fast, and Lob gives you enough enmity to last until the end of that Savage unless you fall asleep. Post-Halone (after lvl 26) the best way to lost aggro on a single target is to delay your Halone combo. The math was shown by Menae below. I know you aren't a fan of using math to explain things, but the purpose of theorycrafting with the numbers is to show the 'why' behind the 'what'.

Most content would be Pre Ifrit HM yea. as you need the better gear really. But you can enter Crystal Tower with a ilvl of 50 and most other places also. BUT some of them have a dps check point.. which is more for the Damage dealers to handle.
And again this isn't a endgame grind guide either but the general idea around tanking my tanking at least..

Well..most content would NOT be Pre Ifrit HM. You said AF job armor and DL accessories, which means lvl 50. I actually logged on my PLD to check this out, in full AF, Full DL acc and my RELIC I have less than 5k HP. Sure you might have an ilvl high enough to get you into CT, that doesn't mean you would be helpful or effective to your group. You would be hard pressed to survive even the HM dungeons in that without being significantly carried by overgeared DPS and Healers who manage somehow to not pull threat. Like I said, gear doesn't make you hit your buttons better, but AF job armor does not provide sufficient HP/Defense/STR to not be a burden to your group for *most* lvl 50 content.


***real edit: If by most content you mean the lvl 50 grind dungeons (AK, WP, Prae, CM) and Ifrit HM, I see your point. But if you wear it into anything else, you're doing your group a disservice***

[Revya]

The point was that flash ALONE can generate a significant amount of AOE threat faster and with less effort than splitting your Halone combo. At lower levels flash is even more crucial because you don't have significant threat tools like your Shield Oath or Halone, or maybe even Provoke.

Flash do generate enmity yea but not as good as i would like.. so I found myself needing to change the way i approached the different situations. What i found was right for me was to use Flash at the start gain initial aggro then proceed to use savage blade for more enmity before i start the combo.
As for splitting up the savage blade and Rage of halone is that you can get the debuff on different targets and this in turn will help you take less damage.

Not really gonna argue with you here, nothing (including Foresight btw) that PLD gets from MRD is super useful. But this was a guide for newbie tanks I thought. Bloodbath is lvl 8, and is actually pretty helpful at lower levels and while soloing. While leveling, bloodbath and protect are a couple of the most useful skills for all melee. It's only problem is poor scaling.

Yea i don't think any of the cross class skills are of that much use either but the most useful i found was Foresight. Blood Bath looks good but i don't see it working as good as it does with warrior. Protect is good for soloing quests and general leveling for almost every class yes but in a group instance there will be healers with it so i don't have it listen up.

I was wrapping all of your rotations into this one section to reduce the wall of text. Pre-Halone(before lvl 26), Shield Lob > Fast > Savage gives you more enmity than Shield Lob >Savage > Fast, and Lob gives you enough enmity to last until the end of that Savage unless you fall asleep. Post-Halone (after lvl 26) the best way to lost aggro on a single target is to delay your Halone combo. The math was shown by Menae below. I know you aren't a fan of using math to explain things, but the purpose of theorycrafting with the numbers is to show the 'why' behind the 'what'.

I totally agree with the math there. It's true it does give more damage and enmity. My point is that it does not account for any thing more in the equation. And i only said to use savage blade once or twice before continuing with the fast blade combo.

Well..most content would NOT be Pre Ifrit HM. You said AF job armor and DL accessories, which means lvl 50. I actually logged on my PLD to check this out, in full AF, Full DL acc and my RELIC I have less than 5k HP. Sure you might have an ilvl high enough to get you into CT, that doesn't mean you would be helpful or effective to your group. You would be hard pressed to survive even the HM dungeons in that without being significantly carried by overgeared DPS and Healers who manage somehow to not pull threat. Like I said, gear doesn't make you hit your buttons better, but AF job armor does not provide sufficient HP/Defense/STR to not be a burden to your group for *most* lvl 50 content.


***real edit: If by most content you mean the lvl 50 grind dungeons (AK, WP, Prae, CM) and Ifrit HM, I see your point. But if you wear it into anything else, you're doing your group a disservice***

yes it is counted for those there. anything above you should be better geared.