Best in Slot for SMN after 2.1?

[T0rin]

oh I meant like what pieces in each slots.

DTR Heavy BiS
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Summoner's Doublet
Allagan Gloves of Casting
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Summoner's Trousers
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Allagan Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

CRT Heavy BiS
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Summoner's Horn
Summoner's Doublet
Summoner's Ringbands
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Allagan Breeches of Casting
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Hero's Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

CRT Heavy BiS w/ Allagan Circlet
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Summoner's Doublet
Summoner's Ringbands
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Allagan Breeches of Casting
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Hero's Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

[Seobit]

Torin, have you tried running more spell speed focused sets through your sim? I'm curious how they'd measure up with the other sets.

[T0rin]

Torin, have you tried running more spell speed focused sets through your sim? I'm curious how they'd measure up with the other sets.

Yeah. I made a 'Worst in Slot' set that had a lot of spell speed. It was 2% dps lower than the BiS sets.

[NexusArchmagus]

Came in just to report my findings.

Ran T4 with the DET heavy set and did about 180.

Ran another round with CRIT regular BiS set and hit 200+ DPS.

Not sure what to say other than there are alot of adds so maybe there's more chances for crit to do their magic than when you do a simulated parse.

Much like spellspeed, it's probably a culmination of these attributes not just one that makes a set BiS.

[T0rin]

Came in just to report my findings.

Ran T4 with the DET heavy set and did about 180.

Ran another round with CRIT regular BiS set and hit 200+ DPS.

Not sure what to say other than there are alot of adds so maybe there's more chances for crit to do their magic than when you do a simulated parse.

Much like spellspeed, it's probably a culmination of these attributes not just one that makes a set BiS.

Not really. I can do 300+ dps on T4 with DTR and CRT heavy sets. Perhaps you just sucked less the second time.

[Seobit]

180 and 200 dps on t4 is awfully low for a BiS SMN (or any class for that matter). There's definitely something else than gear choice going on here.

Testing dps on actual encounters is also not very reliable. With the same gear set it's not uncommon to have about ~20 dps variation on a fight depending on how it goes.

[horaiyo]

Won't lie, now that I have my allagan book my concern for bis setups is nonexistent. It no longer bothers me that I haven't seen the casting boots in four months (bet you they drop this week now).

[xxalucard]

Why do you continue to simply outright ignore the math, the only one part of this that can be proven at all?

In reality, the 'old' BiS set (CRT heavy) is almost (within 0.5%) as good as the DTR heavy BiS. There is no reason to argue the merits of CRT in the current SMN itemization. A CRT heavy BiS is just as good as a DTR heavy BiS. But all this vague rationalization going on is doing absolutely nothing to contribute to the conversation, all it does is confuse the issue for people who haven't taken the time to read all the actual proof.

You just said there's a 0.5% difference in damage between sets. Does that mean you're claiming the parsers you used and your own "tests" are so perfect that they are more than 99.5% accurate?


What "proof" is there? You have no proof. You've been wrong several times throughout this thread and admitted it. Let me highlight:

I don't know if they changed the pet affecting food issue, but I can personally attest to the pet accuracy cap being under 436.

WRONG

Here was you admitting that a parser led you to believe this incorrect information:

As far as I can tell, the pet cap (~450) is still the same. The only thing that had changed, was that FFXIV-APP started mis-reporting 100% pet accuracy, when it wasn't. This caused me and some others to believe that the pet cap had changed, when in reality it seems to have not.

Here's you explaining your BiS foundation of reasoning with "INT Stat Weights":

The cap between the current BiS set and this proposed one is so large (11 weighted int) that the minor DPS bump you see from the SS buff won't amount to 11 int worth.

Then you diminish the value of INT stat weights (your entire basis for what's BiS):

You know, the more I think about it, the less value I think there is in using stat weights. Let's stop to think for a second... what does a stat weight really mean?

My entire argument throughout this thread has been that the stat weights you came up hold no actual value (weights which you yourself even question).

You've admitted to being completely mislead by a parser before, and then questioned your entire foundation for what's BiS (stat weights).

My preference for a Crit BiS is based on the synergy with the pet trait & potential to do the most damage *(and, outside of coil, you'd sub in the allagan gloves & allagan earrings to have even better synergy)*.

You don't work for SE, you don't know the actual damage formulas, and the authority and confidence you have with your theories (theories, not proof) amaze me when you've been wrong several times throughout this thread.


Subjective tests on a dummy based on parsing results that have led you to false information before are not rock-solid proof of anything.

[T0rin]

You just said there's a 0.5% difference in damage between sets. Does that mean you're claiming the parsers you used and your own "tests" are so perfect that they are more than 99.5% accurate?

I have never claimed parsers are accurate. I gave my own simulations in full as "proof" of the 0.5% difference. The one thing that is constant about my simulation is the rotation. It never changes. Every set goes through the exact same rotation, to ensure a fair comparison. I've said time and time again that there is only so much you can do to prove things out. I think we've gone about as far as math and simulations can take us, at some point, if you can't put your faith into that, there is nothing to say but "best of luck". An accurate simulation with full disclosure and no bias showing that DTR and CRT have a 0.5% DPS difference is at least enough for me to be confident in the results. There will always be skeptics, but there is only so much you can do.

What "proof" is there? You have no proof. You've been wrong several times throughout this thread and admitted it.

I make no claims of being infallible. In fact, I eagerly point out when I was wrong and go about what I can to correct those assumptions. The proof is in the aforementioned verification of the damage formula and the resulting simulations. If you can't accept that as proof, nothing short of perfect robotic parsing and SE provided in-game DPS metrics will make you happy. And guess what? We're never going to see that.

My entire argument throughout this thread has been that the stat weights you came up hold no actual value (weights which you yourself even question).

True, stat weighting as a means to determine BiS is a completed flawed method of thinking. Due to the relative nature of the weights, they mean nothing when applied in a fashion that would show one set to be better than another.

You've admitted to being completely mislead by a parser before, and then questioned your entire foundation for what's BiS (stat weights).

Yep, I have. But the being mislead by the parser was an issue of pet accuracy, not in any way related to BiS, except in that we may have had to rethink things if we didnt need the extra 18 accuracy to cap out the pet. Again, I admitted to it, and made corrective statements about it.

My preference for a Crit BiS is based on the synergy with the pet trait & potential to do the most damage *(and, outside of coil, you'd sub in the allagan gloves & allagan earrings to have even better synergy)*.

The pet trait is complete garbage. 20% spell speed for 8 seconds (2 GCDs) on 4% of every pet attack (2.9x seconds, assuming not moving, or contagioning) is a very slim chance of occurence (less than one per minute) for a very minor buff overall in terms of DPS. The amount you gain from that proc happening is absolutely not worth the CRT focus. (see the aforementioned simulations I linked to see how a more frequently occuring spell speed buff actually affects DPS, because I included it)

You don't work for SE, you don't know the actual damage formulas, and the authority and confidence you have with your theories (theories, not proof) amaze me when you've been wrong several times throughout this thread.

No, I don't. And if we leave it up to them, nobody will ever know. Thing is, the formula we do have is accurate enough to ALWAYS give reliable results that CAN be traced back to in-game data. You can sit there and spit out 500 casts of ANY spell in ANY gear set you want, and compare that to the damage formula we are using, and get the SAME results EVERY time. If THAT isn't accurate enough for you, nothing ever will be.

I'll always be confident in what I'm doing, because I'm going about it in the best known way possible. And when my results are disproven, either by myself or others, or even brought under questioning, I'd GLADLY look at the issue at hand. This is a community effort to try to figure out what is best based on the information we have and what we CAN correlate to in-game results. I have no reason currently to think that my simulation, the damage formula, or the results that came out of it, are in any way inaccurate. They give a fair shake to any given build, and use realistic rotations to simulate how things actually play out in game. They give the benefit of every stat where that stat is due. Nothing is neglected that would favor one over another.

If you can think of a better way to go about this that can actually be documented and proven out, feel free to bring it up. For now, all you do is say this is a bunch of bandwagoning and say CRT beats everything, with nothing but anecdotal or RNG based "proof". I've been completely open about my methods and math, how I came to my conclusions, and there has been a lot of GOOD conversation about it, deconstructing it, finding the flaws. That's how it SHOULD work. Simply calling it out for being rubbish and saying you know better and providing nothing to back up what you say, is a waste of everyone's time, your's included.

Subjective tests on a dummy based on parsing results that have led you to false information before are not rock-solid proof of anything.

Nothing was ever based on parsing results except pet accuracy, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the current discussion.

You know Alucard, people don't even walk to debate you on this anymore, that's how ridiculous your arguments are coming across. I'm glad you're very enthusiastic about the topic, but we need to step away from the idea of RNG having any effect on BiS, and talk about these things in their most elemental way possible. I'd like you to be a constructive part of the conversation, but as it stands, you're doing nothing to move the conversation forward. If anything, you're simply trying to take the 'science' out of proving anything, and debating what boils down to illogical arguments.

[EasymodeX]

You have to consider that Garuda has his own crit rate (scaled from gear) along with me.

Irrelevant. SMN personal DPS is lower than average. Replaced by pet. Pet also gains DTR. Note: for any fight where you use Ifrit, DTR is even better.

It's [I believe] more than 1% of a crit-rate difference between gearsets.

It's more than 8 DTR between gearsets.

You're assuming it's taken over 100 casts for me to get 1 extra crit.

It does with +1% crit.

You're also assuming that your ruins hit higher in the damage window every single time,

No. The bottom end of a DTR-optimized damage window is higher than the bottom end of your window.

Irrelevant.

But I feel the likelihood of hitting at least one extra one per 100 casts would be worth it.

Your feeling is wrong.

You also have to take into account that only ruin gets that small +100 damage bonus; fester and enkindle get bigger bonuses and are on longer cooldowns, so an extra crit off one of those abilities is huge.

They also scale more with DTR. Comparatively irrelevant.


You make a long chain of useless irrelevant arguments, trying to create differences in context where there are none.

The only relevant discussion in terms of skewed scaling are:

1. The SMN crit -> spellhate proc for Garuda was it?
2. Ifrit gains bonus scaling from DTR due to physical autoattacks.
3. Fixed DoT timer and SMN heavy reliance on DoTs causes a partially reduced scaling from SS.

Everything else is pretty much a wash and comes down to raw damage formula.