Can we please stop giving melee bad stigma?

[Nova_Dresden]

The problem isnt with the melees but rather that a lot of mechanics can be trivialized by picking an all ranged group.

This is pretty much the reason why. Anything a melee can do a ranged can do without the necessary and complex dancing around the boss. Also have to take into account things like when bosses target a random player other than the tank for an AoE. If that target is a healer or a ranged they need to move to avoid it and maybe one other person as well. If a melee is the target then ALL melee and most likely the tank have to stop pretty much everything they're doing and run to avoid it. Also there's no positioning requirements for ranged to deal damage at max potential unlike melee that perpetually have to move from behind the mob to the flank and vice versa to be at max potential. Every MMO battles this problem, there's no real way to avoid it. Why bring 4 melee and their flaws when 4 ranged can do the same damage if not more and be safer about it as well.

[Viridiana]

This is pretty much the reason why. Anything a melee can do a ranged can do without the necessary and complex dancing around the boss. Also have to take into account things like when bosses target a random player other than the tank for an AoE. If that target is a healer or a ranged they need to move to avoid it and maybe one other person as well. If a melee is the target then ALL melee and most likely the tank have to stop pretty much everything they're doing and run to avoid it. Also there's no positioning requirements for ranged to deal damage at max potential unlike melee that perpetually have to move from behind the mob to the flank and vice versa to be at max potential. Every MMO battles this problem, there's no real way to avoid it. Why bring 4 melee and their flaws when 4 ranged can do the same damage if not more and be safer about it as well.

Wait, that doesn't make any sense. It might almost make sense if by "ranged" you specifically mean "BRD," but it doesn't make sense as soon as you include casters. First, it's extremely rare that something targeting the melee dps will also be targeting the tank. Second, melee dps can still dps while dodging, so there's minimal to no loss of dps when they dodge. And that's not even counting the fact that different melee players might be at different parts of their rotation, and thus you might only even see one of them being targeted at a time.

Now, what you're not factoring in for ranged players is that they often have an area they have to stack in. Which means anything targeting one of them is just as likely to target several of them as it is in the melee scenario. This wouldn't be an issue, but it interrupts casting for BLM and SMN. Granted, it's fine for BRD, but I refuse to join a party with 4 BRDs.

As for your assertion that "anything a melee can do a ranged can do without dancing around the boss," no. . .just no. Let me see a BLM or SMN maintain their rotation while dodging. And if you think ranged can maintain optimal dps while dodging, good luck finding four bards who can outdamage competent MNKs and DRGs.

[xEscaflownex]

As for your assertion that "anything a melee can do a ranged can do without dancing around the boss," no. . .just no. Let me see a BLM or SMN maintain their rotation while dodging. And if you think ranged can maintain optimal dps while dodging, good luck finding four bards who can outdamage competent MNKs and DRGs.

Is this a joke? In the what, 4 or 5 months I have been playing, no MNK or DRG has EVER outdamaged my BRD/BLM/SMN on ANY fight, even with ilvl advantages (my ranged all being i86 at the moment, vs i90 MNKs/DRGs). I consider party lucky if they land a MNK or DRG who even comes close to even with LB added to their DMG.

In my experienced a bad ranged beats a bad melee, a good melee beats a bad to average ranged, but no MNK/DRG comes close to a Good Ranged, never seen it happen.

[Ricdeau]

Is this a joke? In the what, 4 or 5 months I have been playing, no MNK or DRG has EVER outdamaged my BRD/BLM/SMN on ANY fight, even with ilvl advantages (my ranged all being i86 at the moment, vs i90 MNKs/DRGs). I consider party lucky if they land a MNK or DRG who even comes close to even with LB added to their DMG.

In my experienced a bad ranged beats a bad melee, a good melee beats a bad to average ranged, but no MNK/DRG comes close to a Good Ranged, never seen it happen.

Sounds like you've never played with any melee that's even remotely good then.

Edit -- I've been sitting here thinking, I tend to try to elaborate when I so strongly disagree with a statement, but I've come at quite a loss on this one. So I'll just ask what fights are you using as the basis for your statement? Even with asking that there's very few fights that are so melee unfriendly or AOE heavy that they can't be at top or at the very least near the top.

[Cons]

Ive not seen this on Cerberus.

I have seen:

"No noobs"

"Must know tactics!"

[Desidious]

By seeing all the arguement against melee DPS I'm lead to believe that if they do our jobs greatly and stay out of aoes while maintaining our DPS then they are superior players for having learned harder mechanics while staying alive. If they have it so tough because of so many anti-melee mechanics then being a melee DPS could bring about better player skills, memory, and hand-eye coordination which makes a damn good person to have on a team. I see no fault in this and will consider us all equals.

Now go play nice together.

[xEscaflownex]

Sounds like you've never played with any melee that's even remotely good then.

Edit -- I've been sitting here thinking, I tend to try to elaborate when I so strongly disagree with a statement, but I've come at quite a loss on this one. So I'll just ask what fights are you using as the basis for your statement? Even with asking that there's very few fights that are so melee unfriendly or AOE heavy that they can't be at top or at the very least near the top.

And I counter with, Sounds like you've never played with any ranged that's even remotely good then.

Every fight in the game, from low level content up to and through T5. And I'm quite certain ive played with "good" melee's lol, I can see the DPS difference between my Coil Group/FC Melees vs the random server melee population (my Coil/FC members being much more capable), let alone the general disparity between high damaging melees and low damaging ones in PUGs. Regardless, pretty much all I do these days is spam EX primals after doing T1-5 Mondays, I parse everything, and as I have said, no melee DPS have ever outdamaged me, or any other good ranged DPS ive seen in any fight, be it Sastasha, Twintania, or anything in between.

*BTW, I don't hate melee DPS at all lol, I don't mind having them in a group (I do get slightly annoyed/sad face when there are 2 or more in a group - if for no other reason that the odds of more than one of them being decent are astronomically low). I'm also not saying that good melee DPS cant do decent damage, but being top? not in any fight currently in game. There is no fight where a melee can have 100% uptime (parsers track this btw), whether it be for 5 seconds to dodge eruptions, or an extended period of time, like dodging bomb batters and etc. On average, active time in parsers shows ranged at 96% plus (accounting for bosses jumping etc), vs melees generally 10% or more less.

If a melee could get the same active time on a mob that ranged do, then I'm sure they would be king, with all the enhancement they receive intended to make up for this disparity in uptime on targets. However, this is not the case, and as far as I've seen the buffs to their potency and such just does not over come this downtime.

There is such a stigma towards melee DPS because the truth is, there are many more bad ones then there are good, and its painfully obvious when one is bad, because not using their rotations properly, in addition to downtime = terrible deeps, which goes back to the ranged being the "safe" choice, a shitty ranged still has way more uptime and will thus do more dmg than a shitty melee.



I only posted because of the guy saying "Good luck finding any bards that can out DPS a MNK or DRG" ...when im my experience its the complete opposite

[Nova_Dresden]

Wait, that doesn't make any sense. It might almost make sense if by "ranged" you specifically mean "BRD," but it doesn't make sense as soon as you include casters.

Yes, I include casters in the ranged category and so does SE.

First, it's extremely rare that something targeting the melee dps will also be targeting the tank.

Giant red circles of death aren't picky about who all they affect, but they will never affect the tank if they only target ranged players. In an all melee party there's a much higher risk of the tank taking avoidable AoE damage from not being able to move in time.

Second, melee dps can still dps while dodging, so there's minimal to no loss of dps when they dodge. And that's not even counting the fact that different melee players might be at different parts of their rotation, and thus you might only even see one of them being targeted at a time.

Scathe, Ruin II, and Swiftcast+anything were designed as "movement" fillers to provide the same negligible losses. They may not be optimal, but they're something and better than letting a GCD go empty due to movement. Even then you only move out of the AoE and stop to continue casting so you might miss 1 or maybe 2 casts in extreme situations, but that's why those instant spells were put in the game.

Now, what you're not factoring in for ranged players is that they often have an area they have to stack in. Which means anything targeting one of them is just as likely to target several of them as it is in the melee scenario. This wouldn't be an issue, but it interrupts casting for BLM and SMN. Granted, it's fine for BRD, but I refuse to join a party with 4 BRDs.

Stacking with ranged isn't usually a normal tactic in any other MMO unless it's needed to handle a mechanic (like splitting damage) because of the risk of multiple people dying to the same targeted AoE. They may be relatively close, but ranged usually stay spread out in every other MMO when possible for that reason alone. Whereas melee are ALWAYS near each other because mechanically they have to be and are always at risk of being killed by the same AoE.

As for your assertion that "anything a melee can do a ranged can do without dancing around the boss," no. . .just no. Let me see a BLM or SMN maintain their rotation while dodging. And if you think ranged can maintain optimal dps while dodging, good luck finding four bards who can outdamage competent MNKs and DRGs.

By "dancing around the boss" I don't mean dodging mechanics I mean the perpetual movement around the boss from back to flank in order to do max damage. Casters and Bard only require line of sight and being stationary to be able to deal max damage and one of those doesn't really affect Bard. Could 4 Bards outdamage competent Monks? Probably not since it would mean no limit break, but without that I don't see why not assuming they're just as competent and well geared.

[Ricdeau]

snip

Then you would be in the minority in your experiences. Melee can top DPS in most fights currently in the game. I think we can both agree that player ability is the biggest factor here, but if we're just considering people that are playing their class to it's fullest or close to then melee can most certainly top many end game encounters. It's just a flat out silly claim. I'm not saying that one side or the other completely trounces the other since there's many factors at play, but saying that melee can't top any fight currently in the game. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

[xEscaflownex]

By "dancing around the boss" I don't mean dodging mechanics I mean the perpetual movement around the boss from back to flank in order to do max damage. Casters and Bard only require line of sight and being stationary to be able to deal max damage and one of those doesn't really affect Bard. Could 4 Bards outdamage competent Monks? Probably not since it would mean no limit break, but without that I don't see why not assuming they're just as competent and well geared.

Depends on the players behind the jobs, put My BRD/SMNx4 in a group, vs 4 of the highest DPS MNKs or DRGs ive even encountered in a group, I guarantee the combined amount of Damage my ranged are ahead of the melee by is equal to or ,much more likely, greater than the melee LB.